SuperKat 0 #1 May 5, 2005 Out of the 4 of us, myself and another jumper have 300 jumps. The other two have about 125 jumps. I'm not bragging, I'm stating facts here: When myself and the other experienced jumper do two ways, our exit is solid and we bang out about 12 points with slow movements. However, when we do our 4 way, our exits funnel, one goes low and spends most of the skydive getting big but flying all over the place. The other isn't aggressive enough and just kind of hangs out but doesn't dock on the two of us that are falling stable with the same fall rate. I know we won't learn from this but I usually have the 4 of us free fly the exit with no grips on exit. We save a lot of time and sometimes get together faster this way. The last 10 jumps together, I decided to have the 4 of us split up in two way formations so both myself and the other 300 jump guy works switch working with the other low numbers guy. We've been working on fall rate drills, where I would drop downward about 15 feet and then signal for the other jumper to dock with me. Then, I would move upwards about 15 feet and then signal for the other jumper to dock with me. It worked out for one jumper but it didn't work out for the other jumper. The other jumper was just trying to get big and flying all over the place. Since I'm not an instructor or a coach, I don't know how to show them how to fly within heading. I fly within heading without thinking about it. I just do it. I fly naturally. Therefore, I can't really give any input on how that person should correct himself. Do you think it's a better idea to just keep working on 2 way until they nail down on controlling their fall rate? I advised for all of us to pay for coaching but they don't want to spend the $$$. I know, it's more expensive learning on your own without guidance and what not. Unfortunately, if we need coaching, we have to do it as a team, and the rest of the bunch doesn't want to spend money for it. So what's an alternative to not paying for coaching? I can only observe how others are flying. I can't give any comments about what they're doing with their body because I'm not a certified coach or instructor. I'm thinking that there might not be any options or alternatives here. Please give your 2 cents in about this. Thanks, Nico What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Todd_Jacobsen 0 #2 May 5, 2005 Video...video...video You need this with/without coach. Video "almost" never lies (it can decieve) and provides a neutral perspective. 4-way, with the number of jumps shown, I'm a bit surprised at the lack of success. I wouldn't count on the low timers always being at fault. Unless your attempting points on the hill, the two "high" timers should be able to control the exit - paritcularly round exits. Video...video...video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #3 May 5, 2005 Hi, Nico. If one person can't control fall rate and do controlled turns, then the team can't practice. Before the team can move on, insist that the low timers get some coaching, preferably by somebody experienced in 4-way. 2-way no contact drills are the best way to bring them up to snuff. On the first jump, fly a no contact star and do nothing else but fall. Maintain a good fall rate. On another jump, have them do turns in front of you, again without taking grips. On yet another jump, drop down just a few feet and let them adjust. Pop back up 5 feet and let them adjust. On other jumps, do no contact 360's and Compressed Accordions but don't take grips. Do all of these drills without grips. It's worth taking 6 to 10 jumps now to bring your teammates up to snuff. If they don't grasp it after that, then you have to make a decision about the team. Hope this helps! Ed Lightle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murphyka 0 #4 May 5, 2005 I'm wondering what positions you have your two less experienced jumpers in? It seems to me that there are some things that all of you can do to help the guy out that has the fall rate issues. Is this guy flying inside/outside center? Those two positions usually set the fall rate of 4-way. If he is in the center and is constantly trying to slow down for the others, then maybe the other 3 of you could help him out by strapping on some lead. It is difficult for someone with little experience to control heading when all they are thinking about is correcting fall rate. Better eye contact could also help the problem. As far as exits go, you could consider doing an exit camp where you do hop n pops and practice nothing but exits. Good luck with your team!Blue Skies!!! Kimmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #5 May 5, 2005 Yep, I agree with Kim. You might need to add weights. The first priority of a 4-way team is to determine fall rate. That means the lighter jumpers need to adjust their fall rate by adding weight to match the neutral fall rate of the faster jumpers. Most 4-way teams will spend a few days getting this right before moving on to skills practice. I hate to say this but if one guy is spending most of the dive working on coming UP to you, he may not be at fault, it may be you and the rest of the team. On my team this year we have 2 guys that fall like bricks, one average and one slow. Our plan was to put the two bricks into moderately slow fall rate suites, the medium guy into a slightly slick suit and the slow guy into a slick suit and lots of lead. Once we were all properly attired and matched fall rates we went from flailing around in the air to turning lots of points. You may have other issues like individual skill sets and 4-way technique to work on but until you fix the fall rate issue as a TEAM you will not even be able to work on any of the other issues. Good luck 4-way ROCKS!"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #6 May 5, 2005 QuoteVideo...video...video You need this with/without coach. Video "almost" never lies (it can decieve) and provides a neutral perspective. I actually wear video on my head while we fly. How I stated the problem is exactly what it shows on video. I've been branded as a know it all so I'm just going to say this as I've been watching it on video. One low timer is not aggressive enough. He just hangs out but does not take grips immediately. He'll just continue flying in front of you or by your side or even behind you. And when both low timers take grips, they forget to continue to fly their body. Their legs will be almost on their butt or one leg will be out and the other will be on their butt. I've showed them their problems but like I said, I'm not a certified coach or instructor so I'm in no place to give them advice. Quote4-way, with the number of jumps shown, I'm a bit surprised at the lack of success. I wouldn't count on the low timers always being at fault. Unless your attempting points on the hill, the two "high" timers should be able to control the exit - paritcularly round exits. That's the problem. We're just trying to get back into the round after a funneled exit. And we never get back together. We plan tons of points on the ground but in the air we don't even score one point. One time the 4 of us flew with two other RW flyers. They had about 2000 jumps each. Miraculously, we banged out 13 points with them. I couldn't understand how or why. I think they both carried all of us. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #7 May 5, 2005 QuoteIf one person can't control fall rate and do controlled turns, then the team can't practice. Before the team can move on, insist that the low timers get some coaching, preferably by somebody experienced in 4-way. I didn't want to single them out. I wanted us all to get coaching as a team. The only thing is that they don't want to pay for coaching. Quote2-way no contact drills are the best way to bring them up to snuff. On the first jump, fly a no contact star and do nothing else but fall. Maintain a good fall rate. On another jump, have them do turns in front of you, again without taking grips. On yet another jump, drop down just a few feet and let them adjust. Pop back up 5 feet and let them adjust. On other jumps, do no contact 360's and Compressed Accordions but don't take grips. Do all of these drills without grips. This seems like a good drill to practice Ed. Thanks. QuoteIt's worth taking 6 to 10 jumps now to bring your teammates up to snuff. If they don't grasp it after that, then you have to make a decision about the team. I think anything is worth trying to help us all improve Ed. Thanks. However, since we're not really thinking about going pro or anything, I don't want to rule them out just for not getting it the first 50 times. They're my buddies too so I'm committed to them as friends too to make this happen. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #8 May 5, 2005 QuoteI'm wondering what positions you have your two less experienced jumpers in? Well, our exit positions are by weight. The heaviest guy (low timer) is front float, I'm rear float, the lighter low timer is front and inside, the lighter 300 jump guy is rear and inside. The insiders take chest strap grips and the ones on the outside sometimes take shoulder grips with the insiders and somtimes we just arch and take no grips. QuoteIt seems to me that there are some things that all of you can do to help the guy out that has the fall rate issues. Is this guy flying inside/outside center?We've changed positions so many times to see what works and what doesn't. He has better success when he's front float. QuoteThose two positions usually set the fall rate of 4-way. If he is in the center and is constantly trying to slow down for the others, then maybe the other 3 of you could help him out by strapping on some lead. We can all arch harder to catch up to him. However, he's still a bit potato chippy when he's flying on his belly. His legs are uneven and he start to side slide and turn too. Even if he were stable but fell fast, wouldn't you think we're depriving him from learning how to control his fall rate if we always matched his fall rate? QuoteIt is difficult for someone with little experience to control heading when all they are thinking about is correcting fall rate. You got that right. That's exactly what's happening here. I was going to try to just do a two way with him. The dive would be him flying normal, not concentrating on getting big or arching. I wanted to film how he flies naturally without thinking about points and fall rate. What do you think of that? QuoteBetter eye contact could also help the problem. You know what, you've got something there. On video, he never looks directly at me or other divers from what I have noticed. Do you mean eye contact as in eye to eye? I think that's what his problem is if that's the case. QuoteAs far as exits go, you could consider doing an exit camp where you do hop n pops and practice nothing but exits. I've seen a lot of RW teams practice this by getting out at 4,500feet. I never really understood why. Now I do. Thanks for that tip. QuoteGood luck with your team! We'll need it. I keep telling the low timers to practice arching in front of the mirror until their muscle memory does it for them automatically. I don't think they've been practicing that. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #9 May 5, 2005 QuoteYep, I agree with Kim. You might need to add weights. The first priority of a 4-way team is to determine fall rate. That means the lighter jumpers need to adjust their fall rate by adding weight to match the neutral fall rate of the faster jumpers. I totally understand this point. However, when the other two are still having trouble flying within heading and forgetting to keep flying their body while docked in a round I don't think this would help. Myself and the other 300 jump guy can easily match the low guy's fall rate. However, the problem is that he's still a bit unstable. QuoteMost 4-way teams will spend a few days getting this right before moving on to skills practice. I hate to say this but if one guy is spending most of the dive working on coming UP to you, he may not be at fault, it may be you and the rest of the team. Well, the problem is, he's spending his time coming up but he ends up side sliding and turning while getting big and he does not make eye contact with us while he's doing this. QuoteOn my team this year we have 2 guys that fall like bricks, one average and one slow. Our plan was to put the two bricks into moderately slow fall rate suites, the medium guy into a slightly slick suit and the slow guy into a slick suit and lots of lead. Once we were all properly attired and matched fall rates we went from flailing around in the air to turning lots of points. Yeah but you guys probably fly within heading and you have no problems flying your body. Fall rate might have been your only problem. I noticed that the low guy's legs are always uneven. One is out more than the other is, causing him to slide and turn. QuoteYou may have other issues like individual skill sets and 4-way technique to work on but until you fix the fall rate issue as a TEAM you will not even be able to work on any of the other issues. That's the thing man. I've suggested and showed them all on video what the problem may have been. I've advised both low timers to practice in front of the mirror to get their legs even. I don't think they're doing it. I'm lost man. I've already given too much advice to the point where I seem like a know it all. I don't want to take that approach any longer because I don't know it all, I'm not qualified enough to teach them, so it's like what the heck do I do? What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Todd_Jacobsen 0 #10 May 6, 2005 QuoteI actually wear video on my head while we fly. That's not the best way. You need an INDEPENDENT videographer. YOU could be part of the problem, but you only see YOUR perspective. Every skydive I'm in, I'm EXACTLY where I should be - cause I flew there... QuoteI've showed them their problems but like I said, I'm not a certified coach or instructor so I'm in no place to give them advice. Sounds like "we" are not flying good has always been "YOUR" not flying good... QuoteOne time the 4 of us flew with two other RW flyers. They had about 2000 jumps each. Miraculously, we banged out 13 points with them. I couldn't understand how or why. I think they both carried all of us. I think you answered part of your problem - it's not a THEY problem its a WE problem - which means you're a part of the problem. Adding MORE people doesn't make skydiving easier. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #11 May 6, 2005 QuoteWell, our exit positions are by weight.It is much better to assign positions by skill. The center is the most important, and should have the most experienced people there. It is important because the centers set the angles and invite the flakers to dock. If the centers are moving or set poor angles, the flakers are all over just trying to find grips, and that is not good 4way. I'd put your most experienced at outside, then inside, then point, then tail. Between point and tail, have the one with the most outfacing experience and ability do point. This could even work with the personalities: point is good for the non-aggressive one, since point is usually being gripped instead of the other way around. Tail can use the heavier and faster faller right out the door to anchor the formation, and since tail is mostly infacing, fall rate control is easier. QuoteWe can all arch harder to catch up to him. However, he's still a bit potato chippy when he's flying on his belly. His legs are uneven and he start to side slide and turn too. Even if he were stable but fell fast, wouldn't you think we're depriving him from learning how to control his fall rate if we always matched his fall rate?If he is still potato chipping, he is not ready for RW. Sorry, there are a very few basics you must have first. Sounds like he needs some solid 2ways -- perhaps with yourself or whoever is most experienced. Have him match a variety of fall rates, but with small changes, not 15 feet, but a foot up or down. Repeat with light turns: 90 L and R. Etc. If he is incapable of doing this as a 2way with a stable and controlled reference, he is incapable of 4way. A good coach can help greatly here, but if he won't pony up for that, well.... QuoteQuoteBetter eye contact could also help the problem. You know what, you've got something there. On video, he never looks directly at me or other divers from what I have noticed. Do you mean eye contact as in eye to eye? I think that's what his problem is if that's the case.Eye contact is crucial. But at the very minimum, everyone needs to be looking across the formation at their cross-partner, and be at least tangentally aware of their piece-partners. If he is not looking there, where IS he looking? QuoteQuoteAs far as exits go, you could consider doing an exit camp where you do hop n pops and practice nothing but exits. I've seen a lot of RW teams practice this by getting out at 4,500feet. I never really understood why. Now I do. Thanks for that tip.Exit camps are great for working out kinks. However, they're not for every team. If you have less than 100 jumps planned as a team, I think you should skips exit camps and go for freefall time. As for exits, nail one exit solid, then transition. Sidebodies (P) is a good general-purpose and easier exit. Stairstep (B) is next, but a bit more difficult. Get consistant with these two before moving to anything else. And do them from altitude. QuoteI keep telling the low timers to practice arching in front of the mirror until their muscle memory does it for them automatically. I don't think they've been practicing that.I doubt low timers really know a proper arch (I should talk, Mark Kirkby is all over my poor body position) to practice muscle memory. Instead of at home, have them practice it at the DZ in front of an instructor before starting the day of jumping. This close to jump time, and with proper input and feedback from a pro, will help build in muscle memory faster than not doing it at home (do you really think they're doing this at home?). That said, alot of poor body position (BP) comes from fall rate. If the person cannot fall fast enough, they'll compromise BP by pulling their arms in, feet on butt, elbows vertical and other contortions, plus not being comfortable or able to dock. Weight up. If the person falls too fast, they have to compensate with arms all out, legs out, tracking about the sky. Get a looser suit, have teammates weight up, learn to fall relative. But best is coaching. I understand the limited funds aspect, but I promise the jumps will go much better and everyone will have more fun with a modicum of good coaching. You don't have to go silly with it, but even one day of coaching split four ways is worth the price of a jump or two. If they're unwilling to pay even this little, hopefully you can find a more experienced RW type to help out with video (not pov, but dedicated camera) review. Good luck with it! Be sure to give your teammates room to breathe; 4way is difficult and demanding enough without someone pointing fingers or giving feedback on every little thing. Be sure to get video that is not point-of-view. While cool to look at, it's not helpful in getting the big picture needed to properly debrief and learn. -- Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #12 May 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteI actually wear video on my head while we fly. QuoteThat's not the best way. You need an INDEPENDENT videographer. YOU could be part of the problem, but you only see YOUR perspective. Yes, you're right. I could be part of the problem. Problem is, no one wants to spend money to find these things out. So it's like what the heck do we do? Finding out these kind of things will cost money. QuoteEvery skydive I'm in, I'm EXACTLY where I should be - cause I flew there... That's where our problem lies, we're not even remotely close to where we should be. QuoteI've showed them their problems but like I said, I'm not a certified coach or instructor so I'm in no place to give them advice Sounds like "we" are not flying good has always been "YOUR" not flying good... You probably right. I guess it's all our problems. QuoteOne time the 4 of us flew with two other RW flyers. They had about 2000 jumps each. Miraculously, we banged out 13 points with them. I couldn't understand how or why. I think they both carried all of us. I think you answered part of your problem - it's not a THEY problem its a WE problem - which means you're a part of the problem. Adding MORE people doesn't make skydiving easier. I know but like I said when those two RW flyers with over 2000 jumps flew with us, we were never ever that good together, and yet we banged out more points with those two in the mix. When we tried to duplicate it again without them, it was a mess again. I think it might have been how the other two may have positioned themselves or maybe it was just their aura. I can't explain it. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Todd_Jacobsen 0 #13 May 6, 2005 Quote QuoteEvery skydive I'm in, I'm EXACTLY where I should be - cause I flew there... That's where our problem lies, we're not even remotely close to where we should be. Umm.. my attempt at sarcasm was lost a bit... When you only see skydiving from ONE perspective, it's easy to see OTHERS are at fault. Others are moving farther away, can't get back in, drop out ... I haven't seen an attempt to say "Why am 'I' moving away from others, why am 'I' floating, why can't 'I' help... Your initial emails were quick to blame others. BTW, video, from your perspective, will ALWAYS be deceptive - particularly to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bliston 0 #14 May 6, 2005 In order for a four-way team to progress, you need to spend money on: 1. Video 2. Coaching (or get experienced people on the DZ to help for free) 3. Tunnel Training You can either pay $900 (45 jumps) to figure some stuff out on your as a team, or pay $900 for one good weekend of video and coaching and make 10 times the progress. That's 150 each for a top coach, 600 for twenty jumps with video, and 100 for packers, and 50 to celebrate the good decision. The coach will show you all the exits, all the block techniques, and all the creeping and debriefing techniques. Ask anybody who has every done serious four-way and they'll tell you the same thing. Ben MDMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #15 May 6, 2005 If you keep plugging at it, you guys will figure out something. But it'll take some time and buck$. If you all want to get better, it sounds like the single best thing for you ALL is to do a basic (individual) skills camp at the tunnel. Followup a couple months with another where you maybe can progress to some simple team stuff in there. If you are all just jumping for shits and giggles, then by all means keep doing what you're doing and don't take it so seriously. You are jumping with friends and there's not really any experience in that group, YET. I'm type A like you sound to be, the hardest thing to do is to recognize that any of the others may just not have the drive that you do for lots of clean points. Their definition of fun might be different. The worst is 3 type A and another rather indifferent - it really drive stress. That and rainy weekends. Sit down and agree on expectations. Then live up to THAT agreement and don't try to press them towards your preference. It'll either come together or not. Getting 4 people on the same page is tough. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HeyRobin 0 #16 May 6, 2005 You're doing some really smart things. I'm a big fan of non-docked exits. I also like the fallrate drills you've done. Great diagnostic tools, those. It's frustrating at the beginning. The trick is to allow for it. Understand that hey, it takes time. Of course you're going to funnel the exits. Of course there will be body position problems. Of course some folk'll relax once they've got on grips. That's just how it goes. Gotta pay your dues. Growin' pains. It's ok. They'll get there. It's easy to find things needing improvement. What can be tricky is keeping a tone of fun in the group throughout all these frustrations. Screw the points for now. The points will come. Forget about analyzing 15 things that could've gone better on that skydive. That won't help. It's too much too fast, and it increases frustration. You've got all season to figure that crap out. Allow the team to have fun and make their mistakes. Remember, every jump yall are pooling about 100.00-135.00 of your money together to experience a moment together in the sky. For god sakes, allow that moment to be a good one, especially when things don't go as planned. In almost every dive, amidst the miriad of mistakes, there are a few Moments of Glory. Look for 'em. They're there. The silver bullet: To reiterate what others have said, it is unkind to ask someone to fly effectively outside his/ her range. Wanna screw someone's body position for life? Ask 'em to constantly fly outside their effective range. (The light folk'll often develop a "chicken wing" and the heavy folk'll develop knees down). Don't do that to them. They deserve better. Each member should be somewhere near the middle of their range together during the dive. You must get the fallrate thing figured out. Figure it out with jumpsuits and weights. Until you got that, you'll get nothing. Good luck with it. and remember: a little laughter can be far more effective than advice after a wonderfully messed up dive! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites outlawphx 1 #17 May 6, 2005 Definitely spend money on independent video. Even if you have to jump less, you'll progress faster. Having an experienced flyer or coach is also highly recommended. From the sounds of it, you probably could get away with just someone experienced. The real advantage of having someone else review (even if you think they're only as good as you) is that their opinions will be more easily accepted by your teammates. If you already have a "know it all" tag, egos can come into play when they're evaluating your advice. Also, criticism between teammates can start to sound a lot like blame. Plus, how receptive are you to advice if you think you're the best flyer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #18 May 6, 2005 QuoteWell, our exit positions are by weight. The heaviest guy (low timer) is front float, I'm rear float, the lighter low timer is front and inside, the lighter 300 jump guy is rear and inside. The insiders take chest strap grips and the ones on the outside sometimes take shoulder grips with the insiders and somtimes we just arch and take no grips. Putting the heaviest and least experienced on point is a bad combo. AT least in my opinion. The point spends most of it's time facing out and it is setting him up to go low A LOT! I would put him on tail and let him anchor the exits out. Plus being on tail he can see everything and it will help him to stay in the formation. Tail is usually the last one on so don't get pissy with him for it. The centers are the most important. Ooutside has huge moves and he needs to be very confident in what he is doing. Inside Center sets the angles and he needs tobe even more confident in the moves he makes. Point and Tail (while still very important) need a good center to know where to put themselves. ' What exits are you doing that you are taking chest strap grips out the door? A round? IF so just take arm grips. Also you wearing video on every jump is not going to do much to help[ you figure things out. You need camera from above. All your angle will really show is........ welll to be honest not much that will really help you to figure out your problems. If you are doing the right thing (eye contact) you will not pick up much on your camera. Plus, it is more of a distraction then anything. QuoteEven if he were stable but fell fast, wouldn't you think we're depriving him from learning how to control his fall rate if we always matched his fall rate? YOu are trying to fall is a team. All of yo shouldbe in the middle of your fall rate (this is done with weights most of the time) IT is a pet peeve of mine when I see a 4 way guy (or girl) wearing a baggy jumpsuit. I wonder what your team fall rate is? That is the first thing to work out. It think Ed said it earlier. Go out and doa no contact Star. Fall across from each other and try to stay relative. From there you will adjust the rate by having people change jumpsuits or ad weights? The centers usually set the fall rate but, it needs to be comfortable for all. Your profile says you jump at XKeys? Is that where you guys jump at as a team? There a god 4 way folks out there. The best thinhg for you guys is to have the others shit or get off the pot. Get coaching. I know you want to but...... they need to get on board. One thing I have learned is that the team needs to have the same goals and ambitions. THis includes coaching. If they don't want to get coaching and it sounds like all of you do. THen you guys may be doomed from the start. It will lead to a lot of finger pointing and frustration. You have a coach and he points out what needs to be fixed and how to do it. If the other 3 don't see the need for coach...... well then find a new team. That is if you really want to learn 4 way. If this is just 4 guys playing around to have fun, well go have fun and not worry about it. It sounds like you at least want more. QuoteWe'll need it. I keep telling the low timers to practice arching in front of the mirror until their muscle memory does it for them automatically. I don't think they've been practicing that. Two things arching on the ground in front of a mirror (at least in my opinion) doesn't do a whole hell of a lot. IT just makes you tired. The best thing is jumping with video and having a coach look at it and tell him what to do. No offence to you, but I bet you need some work as well. I know I still do. Also good teams don't just fly well. They are friends that is wear the energy comes from. If one person on the team keeps refering to his team mates as low timers they will start to resent it. You guys are a low time team that is learning together. Keep that additude and it will help a lot. The one thing you don't want to do is stress anyone to much. If it starts to not be fn then they will go bye-bye on ya and that really sucks after you have done lot's of jumps and lot's of monet onlt to have to find a 4th again.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murphyka 0 #19 May 6, 2005 Dom hit the nail on the head...your attitude is going to rub off on your teammates. Go back and read some of your posts and think how you would feel if this were them talking about you. In order for your team to progress, it would be a good idea for you all to sit down and have a meeting about your goals for the year. Has this already happened or did you just decide to throw the team together and went right to jumping? You need to talk about each person's goal and the collective team goals...right there you will find out if the 4 of you are suited to be teammates. Next, talk about how you are expecting to achieve the goal, time, money, committment. If there are discrepencies, you need to come to a comprimise. It sounds to me that your team did not come to team consensus on anything, especially since you have split the team down the middle according to jump #'s. Remember: jump numbers is just the accounting system that tells you how many times you have left the plane. It says nothing about a person's personal ability in the air. Don't handicap a person just because they have less jumps than you. I also agree that an exit with grips on a chest strap is not the most stable way to exit the plane. Arm and leg harness grips are a much more stable way to get out. Remember, in the door, you are already in a funnel. Each one of you need to figure out where you are going to put yourself to get out of that funnel. It is a team effort. It is a good idea to nail one exit successfully. If you were to try a Meeker exit which is a structurally stable exit, you can easily transition to alot of the formations from there. This has really been a great thread. I hope that you take some of these pointers and share them with your teammates. I wish your team success and fun. Daveb, I saw some training tapes of your team last weekend when Samer and Chris were here at Spaceland. It looks great and looks like you all are having fun. (I see that you still haven't committed to the team haircut yet!)Blue Skies!!! Kimmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites daveb 1 #20 May 6, 2005 QuoteDaveb, I saw some training tapes of your team last weekend when Samer and Chris were here at Spaceland. It looks great and looks like you all are having fun. (I see that you still haven't committed to the team haircut yet!)Hahahahaha-- clunk! (Laughing my head off). I've received some pressure, but I'm hanging on to what I have while I still have it. Now, my Dad, Mom, Grandmother, relatives, friends, acquaintences, fashion magazines all think I should get shorn. Perhaps someday I'll get some fashion sense, but hopefully not too soon. The team is doing pretty well. I don't know what they're showing that looks so good, but Samer is still potato chipping, Chris is not aggressive enough, I'm a floaty b*tch, Mark doesn't want to hire a coach -- you know, standard team issues. ;-) Actually, to bring this back on topic, on at least one dive this year, each of us has done exactly as stated (except I don't think Mark needs to change ;-). The trick, as mentioned by several others, is to be cool with it, get the coaching, get the independant video, all commit to a common goal, spend lots of money, and enjoy 4way for what it is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UKFSChick 0 #21 May 7, 2005 Lol....Mark still going low and blaming the rest of you guys eh? Dave you need to arch, remember? ;-) Superkat - sounds like you all need to sit down and work out your team goals. The advice on here is very nice but at the end of the day, if some people want to do 'serious' 4 way (how I hate that expression, but you know what I mean) and the rest are happy burning cash through the sky and wondering 'hey, what went wrong? but what a blast!' you will all end up frustrated and pissed off. You need coaching, video and tunnel to really improve, as some have said... Without it, it will be a long and weary road. This is something totally fundamental you all have to agree on - if you don't agree, you might be better pursuing different paths. x Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperKat 0 #22 May 9, 2005 QuoteIt's frustrating at the beginning. The trick is to allow for it. Understand that hey, it takes time. Of course you're going to funnel the exits. Of course there will be body position problems. Of course some folk'll relax once they've got on grips. That's just how it goes. Gotta pay your dues. Growin' pains. It's ok. They'll get there. Man, you are so right. Everyone here is right. I'm expecting us all to hit the ground running. I'm forgetting that things just take time to improve and to be patient with them. QuoteIt's easy to find things needing improvement. What can be tricky is keeping a tone of fun in the group throughout all these frustrations. Another good point. I've become an anal bunghole! I'm expecting improvement that will happen with time and patience like yesterday. Screw the points for now. The points will come. Forget about analyzing 15 things that could've gone better on that skydive. That won't help. It's too much too fast, and it increases frustration. You've got all season to figure that crap out. Allow the team to have fun and make their mistakes. QuoteRemember, every jump yall are pooling about 100.00-135.00 of your money together to experience a moment together in the sky. For god sakes, allow that moment to be a good one, especially when things don't go as planned. Right again. Both low timers just have fun jumping 4 way, even if we don't get together. I'm the one that rains on their parade and quick to point fingers. QuoteIn almost every dive, amidst the miriad of mistakes, there are a few Moments of Glory. Look for 'em. They're there. The most basic one that I forget, we jumped together, had fun, no one got hurt as a result of it and we can get packed up and do it again. QuoteThe silver bullet: To reiterate what others have said, it is unkind to ask someone to fly effectively outside his/ her range. Wanna screw someone's body position for life? Ask 'em to constantly fly outside their effective range. (The light folk'll often develop a "chicken wing" and the heavy folk'll develop knees down). Don't do that to them. They deserve better. Each member should be somewhere near the middle of their range together during the dive. Sorry guys this is way over my head. I wouldn't know what the heck is the right position for anyone. I jumped with a couple of 6-10 way formations previously. They usually put the heaviest guys out in the door. I just grasped the whole concept wrong. QuoteYou must get the fallrate thing figured out. Figure it out with jumpsuits and weights. Until you got that, you'll get nothing. Cheri Schuch once told me, it's not the suit that makes the person, it's their ability to fly that does. However, she did mention how important booties were. Maybe I just got the wrong message again. I probably did. QuoteGood luck with it. and remember: a little laughter can be far more effective than advice after a wonderfully messed up dive! Thanks Rob. I should just adopt this attitude as well. I've got to get my head out of my ass. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperKat 0 #23 May 9, 2005 QuoteIn order for a four-way team to progress, you need to spend money on: 1. Video 2. Coaching (or get experienced people on the DZ to help for free) 3. Tunnel Training You can either pay $900 (45 jumps) to figure some stuff out on your as a team, or pay $900 for one good weekend of video and coaching and make 10 times the progress. That's 150 each for a top coach, 600 for twenty jumps with video, and 100 for packers, and 50 to celebrate the good decision. The coach will show you all the exits, all the block techniques, and all the creeping and debriefing techniques. Ask anybody who has every done serious four-way and they'll tell you the same thing. Ben MD Thanks Bliston. I hope we can do that soon. I just spoke to a Kim, a Skydive U coach. She said that she'd charge about 200 or 250 for 5 jumps. I think that's reasonable. My other teammate agreed as well. I just hope that I can get the rest to agree. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperKat 0 #24 May 9, 2005 QuoteIf you keep plugging at it, you guys will figure out something. But it'll take some time and buck$. That and keeping my mouth shut and not pointing fingers anymore and just being more patient. QuoteI'm type A like you sound to be, the hardest thing to do is to recognize that any of the others may just not have the drive that you do for lots of clean points. Their definition of fun might be different. The worst is 3 type A and another rather indifferent - it really drive stress. That and rainy weekends. Sit down and agree on expectations. Then live up to THAT agreement and don't try to press them towards your preference. That's the best thing for me to do right now. We'll all just have to sit together and just discuss what we really want out of this. QuoteIt'll either come together or not. Getting 4 people on the same page is tough. Thanks. I can only hope for the best and hope that we can all come to terms. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperKat 0 #25 May 9, 2005 QuoteDefinitely spend money on independent video. Even if you have to jump less, you'll progress faster. Having an experienced flyer or coach is also highly recommended. From the sounds of it, you probably could get away with just someone experienced. The real advantage of having someone else review (even if you think they're only as good as you) is that their opinions will be more easily accepted by your teammates. If you already have a "know it all" tag, egos can come into play when they're evaluating your advice. Also, criticism between teammates can start to sound a lot like blame. Plus, how receptive are you to advice if you think you're the best flyer? Thanks, I hope we all decide to get the coaching. I talked with the team about my criticism and told them that I decided not to say anything and just have an experienced or a JM evaluate the skydive and a videographer to shoot the video. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Todd_Jacobsen 0 #13 May 6, 2005 Quote QuoteEvery skydive I'm in, I'm EXACTLY where I should be - cause I flew there... That's where our problem lies, we're not even remotely close to where we should be. Umm.. my attempt at sarcasm was lost a bit... When you only see skydiving from ONE perspective, it's easy to see OTHERS are at fault. Others are moving farther away, can't get back in, drop out ... I haven't seen an attempt to say "Why am 'I' moving away from others, why am 'I' floating, why can't 'I' help... Your initial emails were quick to blame others. BTW, video, from your perspective, will ALWAYS be deceptive - particularly to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bliston 0 #14 May 6, 2005 In order for a four-way team to progress, you need to spend money on: 1. Video 2. Coaching (or get experienced people on the DZ to help for free) 3. Tunnel Training You can either pay $900 (45 jumps) to figure some stuff out on your as a team, or pay $900 for one good weekend of video and coaching and make 10 times the progress. That's 150 each for a top coach, 600 for twenty jumps with video, and 100 for packers, and 50 to celebrate the good decision. The coach will show you all the exits, all the block techniques, and all the creeping and debriefing techniques. Ask anybody who has every done serious four-way and they'll tell you the same thing. Ben MDMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #15 May 6, 2005 If you keep plugging at it, you guys will figure out something. But it'll take some time and buck$. If you all want to get better, it sounds like the single best thing for you ALL is to do a basic (individual) skills camp at the tunnel. Followup a couple months with another where you maybe can progress to some simple team stuff in there. If you are all just jumping for shits and giggles, then by all means keep doing what you're doing and don't take it so seriously. You are jumping with friends and there's not really any experience in that group, YET. I'm type A like you sound to be, the hardest thing to do is to recognize that any of the others may just not have the drive that you do for lots of clean points. Their definition of fun might be different. The worst is 3 type A and another rather indifferent - it really drive stress. That and rainy weekends. Sit down and agree on expectations. Then live up to THAT agreement and don't try to press them towards your preference. It'll either come together or not. Getting 4 people on the same page is tough. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeyRobin 0 #16 May 6, 2005 You're doing some really smart things. I'm a big fan of non-docked exits. I also like the fallrate drills you've done. Great diagnostic tools, those. It's frustrating at the beginning. The trick is to allow for it. Understand that hey, it takes time. Of course you're going to funnel the exits. Of course there will be body position problems. Of course some folk'll relax once they've got on grips. That's just how it goes. Gotta pay your dues. Growin' pains. It's ok. They'll get there. It's easy to find things needing improvement. What can be tricky is keeping a tone of fun in the group throughout all these frustrations. Screw the points for now. The points will come. Forget about analyzing 15 things that could've gone better on that skydive. That won't help. It's too much too fast, and it increases frustration. You've got all season to figure that crap out. Allow the team to have fun and make their mistakes. Remember, every jump yall are pooling about 100.00-135.00 of your money together to experience a moment together in the sky. For god sakes, allow that moment to be a good one, especially when things don't go as planned. In almost every dive, amidst the miriad of mistakes, there are a few Moments of Glory. Look for 'em. They're there. The silver bullet: To reiterate what others have said, it is unkind to ask someone to fly effectively outside his/ her range. Wanna screw someone's body position for life? Ask 'em to constantly fly outside their effective range. (The light folk'll often develop a "chicken wing" and the heavy folk'll develop knees down). Don't do that to them. They deserve better. Each member should be somewhere near the middle of their range together during the dive. You must get the fallrate thing figured out. Figure it out with jumpsuits and weights. Until you got that, you'll get nothing. Good luck with it. and remember: a little laughter can be far more effective than advice after a wonderfully messed up dive! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outlawphx 1 #17 May 6, 2005 Definitely spend money on independent video. Even if you have to jump less, you'll progress faster. Having an experienced flyer or coach is also highly recommended. From the sounds of it, you probably could get away with just someone experienced. The real advantage of having someone else review (even if you think they're only as good as you) is that their opinions will be more easily accepted by your teammates. If you already have a "know it all" tag, egos can come into play when they're evaluating your advice. Also, criticism between teammates can start to sound a lot like blame. Plus, how receptive are you to advice if you think you're the best flyer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #18 May 6, 2005 QuoteWell, our exit positions are by weight. The heaviest guy (low timer) is front float, I'm rear float, the lighter low timer is front and inside, the lighter 300 jump guy is rear and inside. The insiders take chest strap grips and the ones on the outside sometimes take shoulder grips with the insiders and somtimes we just arch and take no grips. Putting the heaviest and least experienced on point is a bad combo. AT least in my opinion. The point spends most of it's time facing out and it is setting him up to go low A LOT! I would put him on tail and let him anchor the exits out. Plus being on tail he can see everything and it will help him to stay in the formation. Tail is usually the last one on so don't get pissy with him for it. The centers are the most important. Ooutside has huge moves and he needs to be very confident in what he is doing. Inside Center sets the angles and he needs tobe even more confident in the moves he makes. Point and Tail (while still very important) need a good center to know where to put themselves. ' What exits are you doing that you are taking chest strap grips out the door? A round? IF so just take arm grips. Also you wearing video on every jump is not going to do much to help[ you figure things out. You need camera from above. All your angle will really show is........ welll to be honest not much that will really help you to figure out your problems. If you are doing the right thing (eye contact) you will not pick up much on your camera. Plus, it is more of a distraction then anything. QuoteEven if he were stable but fell fast, wouldn't you think we're depriving him from learning how to control his fall rate if we always matched his fall rate? YOu are trying to fall is a team. All of yo shouldbe in the middle of your fall rate (this is done with weights most of the time) IT is a pet peeve of mine when I see a 4 way guy (or girl) wearing a baggy jumpsuit. I wonder what your team fall rate is? That is the first thing to work out. It think Ed said it earlier. Go out and doa no contact Star. Fall across from each other and try to stay relative. From there you will adjust the rate by having people change jumpsuits or ad weights? The centers usually set the fall rate but, it needs to be comfortable for all. Your profile says you jump at XKeys? Is that where you guys jump at as a team? There a god 4 way folks out there. The best thinhg for you guys is to have the others shit or get off the pot. Get coaching. I know you want to but...... they need to get on board. One thing I have learned is that the team needs to have the same goals and ambitions. THis includes coaching. If they don't want to get coaching and it sounds like all of you do. THen you guys may be doomed from the start. It will lead to a lot of finger pointing and frustration. You have a coach and he points out what needs to be fixed and how to do it. If the other 3 don't see the need for coach...... well then find a new team. That is if you really want to learn 4 way. If this is just 4 guys playing around to have fun, well go have fun and not worry about it. It sounds like you at least want more. QuoteWe'll need it. I keep telling the low timers to practice arching in front of the mirror until their muscle memory does it for them automatically. I don't think they've been practicing that. Two things arching on the ground in front of a mirror (at least in my opinion) doesn't do a whole hell of a lot. IT just makes you tired. The best thing is jumping with video and having a coach look at it and tell him what to do. No offence to you, but I bet you need some work as well. I know I still do. Also good teams don't just fly well. They are friends that is wear the energy comes from. If one person on the team keeps refering to his team mates as low timers they will start to resent it. You guys are a low time team that is learning together. Keep that additude and it will help a lot. The one thing you don't want to do is stress anyone to much. If it starts to not be fn then they will go bye-bye on ya and that really sucks after you have done lot's of jumps and lot's of monet onlt to have to find a 4th again.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murphyka 0 #19 May 6, 2005 Dom hit the nail on the head...your attitude is going to rub off on your teammates. Go back and read some of your posts and think how you would feel if this were them talking about you. In order for your team to progress, it would be a good idea for you all to sit down and have a meeting about your goals for the year. Has this already happened or did you just decide to throw the team together and went right to jumping? You need to talk about each person's goal and the collective team goals...right there you will find out if the 4 of you are suited to be teammates. Next, talk about how you are expecting to achieve the goal, time, money, committment. If there are discrepencies, you need to come to a comprimise. It sounds to me that your team did not come to team consensus on anything, especially since you have split the team down the middle according to jump #'s. Remember: jump numbers is just the accounting system that tells you how many times you have left the plane. It says nothing about a person's personal ability in the air. Don't handicap a person just because they have less jumps than you. I also agree that an exit with grips on a chest strap is not the most stable way to exit the plane. Arm and leg harness grips are a much more stable way to get out. Remember, in the door, you are already in a funnel. Each one of you need to figure out where you are going to put yourself to get out of that funnel. It is a team effort. It is a good idea to nail one exit successfully. If you were to try a Meeker exit which is a structurally stable exit, you can easily transition to alot of the formations from there. This has really been a great thread. I hope that you take some of these pointers and share them with your teammates. I wish your team success and fun. Daveb, I saw some training tapes of your team last weekend when Samer and Chris were here at Spaceland. It looks great and looks like you all are having fun. (I see that you still haven't committed to the team haircut yet!)Blue Skies!!! Kimmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #20 May 6, 2005 QuoteDaveb, I saw some training tapes of your team last weekend when Samer and Chris were here at Spaceland. It looks great and looks like you all are having fun. (I see that you still haven't committed to the team haircut yet!)Hahahahaha-- clunk! (Laughing my head off). I've received some pressure, but I'm hanging on to what I have while I still have it. Now, my Dad, Mom, Grandmother, relatives, friends, acquaintences, fashion magazines all think I should get shorn. Perhaps someday I'll get some fashion sense, but hopefully not too soon. The team is doing pretty well. I don't know what they're showing that looks so good, but Samer is still potato chipping, Chris is not aggressive enough, I'm a floaty b*tch, Mark doesn't want to hire a coach -- you know, standard team issues. ;-) Actually, to bring this back on topic, on at least one dive this year, each of us has done exactly as stated (except I don't think Mark needs to change ;-). The trick, as mentioned by several others, is to be cool with it, get the coaching, get the independant video, all commit to a common goal, spend lots of money, and enjoy 4way for what it is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKFSChick 0 #21 May 7, 2005 Lol....Mark still going low and blaming the rest of you guys eh? Dave you need to arch, remember? ;-) Superkat - sounds like you all need to sit down and work out your team goals. The advice on here is very nice but at the end of the day, if some people want to do 'serious' 4 way (how I hate that expression, but you know what I mean) and the rest are happy burning cash through the sky and wondering 'hey, what went wrong? but what a blast!' you will all end up frustrated and pissed off. You need coaching, video and tunnel to really improve, as some have said... Without it, it will be a long and weary road. This is something totally fundamental you all have to agree on - if you don't agree, you might be better pursuing different paths. x Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #22 May 9, 2005 QuoteIt's frustrating at the beginning. The trick is to allow for it. Understand that hey, it takes time. Of course you're going to funnel the exits. Of course there will be body position problems. Of course some folk'll relax once they've got on grips. That's just how it goes. Gotta pay your dues. Growin' pains. It's ok. They'll get there. Man, you are so right. Everyone here is right. I'm expecting us all to hit the ground running. I'm forgetting that things just take time to improve and to be patient with them. QuoteIt's easy to find things needing improvement. What can be tricky is keeping a tone of fun in the group throughout all these frustrations. Another good point. I've become an anal bunghole! I'm expecting improvement that will happen with time and patience like yesterday. Screw the points for now. The points will come. Forget about analyzing 15 things that could've gone better on that skydive. That won't help. It's too much too fast, and it increases frustration. You've got all season to figure that crap out. Allow the team to have fun and make their mistakes. QuoteRemember, every jump yall are pooling about 100.00-135.00 of your money together to experience a moment together in the sky. For god sakes, allow that moment to be a good one, especially when things don't go as planned. Right again. Both low timers just have fun jumping 4 way, even if we don't get together. I'm the one that rains on their parade and quick to point fingers. QuoteIn almost every dive, amidst the miriad of mistakes, there are a few Moments of Glory. Look for 'em. They're there. The most basic one that I forget, we jumped together, had fun, no one got hurt as a result of it and we can get packed up and do it again. QuoteThe silver bullet: To reiterate what others have said, it is unkind to ask someone to fly effectively outside his/ her range. Wanna screw someone's body position for life? Ask 'em to constantly fly outside their effective range. (The light folk'll often develop a "chicken wing" and the heavy folk'll develop knees down). Don't do that to them. They deserve better. Each member should be somewhere near the middle of their range together during the dive. Sorry guys this is way over my head. I wouldn't know what the heck is the right position for anyone. I jumped with a couple of 6-10 way formations previously. They usually put the heaviest guys out in the door. I just grasped the whole concept wrong. QuoteYou must get the fallrate thing figured out. Figure it out with jumpsuits and weights. Until you got that, you'll get nothing. Cheri Schuch once told me, it's not the suit that makes the person, it's their ability to fly that does. However, she did mention how important booties were. Maybe I just got the wrong message again. I probably did. QuoteGood luck with it. and remember: a little laughter can be far more effective than advice after a wonderfully messed up dive! Thanks Rob. I should just adopt this attitude as well. I've got to get my head out of my ass. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #23 May 9, 2005 QuoteIn order for a four-way team to progress, you need to spend money on: 1. Video 2. Coaching (or get experienced people on the DZ to help for free) 3. Tunnel Training You can either pay $900 (45 jumps) to figure some stuff out on your as a team, or pay $900 for one good weekend of video and coaching and make 10 times the progress. That's 150 each for a top coach, 600 for twenty jumps with video, and 100 for packers, and 50 to celebrate the good decision. The coach will show you all the exits, all the block techniques, and all the creeping and debriefing techniques. Ask anybody who has every done serious four-way and they'll tell you the same thing. Ben MD Thanks Bliston. I hope we can do that soon. I just spoke to a Kim, a Skydive U coach. She said that she'd charge about 200 or 250 for 5 jumps. I think that's reasonable. My other teammate agreed as well. I just hope that I can get the rest to agree. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #24 May 9, 2005 QuoteIf you keep plugging at it, you guys will figure out something. But it'll take some time and buck$. That and keeping my mouth shut and not pointing fingers anymore and just being more patient. QuoteI'm type A like you sound to be, the hardest thing to do is to recognize that any of the others may just not have the drive that you do for lots of clean points. Their definition of fun might be different. The worst is 3 type A and another rather indifferent - it really drive stress. That and rainy weekends. Sit down and agree on expectations. Then live up to THAT agreement and don't try to press them towards your preference. That's the best thing for me to do right now. We'll all just have to sit together and just discuss what we really want out of this. QuoteIt'll either come together or not. Getting 4 people on the same page is tough. Thanks. I can only hope for the best and hope that we can all come to terms. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #25 May 9, 2005 QuoteDefinitely spend money on independent video. Even if you have to jump less, you'll progress faster. Having an experienced flyer or coach is also highly recommended. From the sounds of it, you probably could get away with just someone experienced. The real advantage of having someone else review (even if you think they're only as good as you) is that their opinions will be more easily accepted by your teammates. If you already have a "know it all" tag, egos can come into play when they're evaluating your advice. Also, criticism between teammates can start to sound a lot like blame. Plus, how receptive are you to advice if you think you're the best flyer? Thanks, I hope we all decide to get the coaching. I talked with the team about my criticism and told them that I decided not to say anything and just have an experienced or a JM evaluate the skydive and a videographer to shoot the video. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
