jmpwme 0 #26 February 3, 2005 That has always been my view as well, but - the arguement the other way (which I think is even stronger now) is that if you have a busted inter, the bottom of the block is NOT a scoring formation. Accordingly, why bother to build it, just move on. This scenario was given to several judges about a year ago and they were all over the board on how to score it. The GT plan, right or wrong, is to always build the bottom of the block. Next question with respect to the removal of the NJ - if you have points out of view on exit, is it an omission or just a failure to show with no credit for the points built? Where do the judges draw the line if they can't see what you are doing. For example, new block 12 out the door goes out of view, there is some movement on screen, but you can't see if it shows intent. How do you score it? Does the new rule encourage the video to bust with blocks out the door? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #27 February 3, 2005 QuoteHow can you have a center point issue when there is no defined rotation? sure, stupid me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #28 February 3, 2005 QuoteThat has always been my view as well, but - the arguement the other way (which I think is even stronger now) is that if you have a busted inter, the bottom of the block is NOT a scoring formation. Accordingly, why bother to build it, just move on. true, but then you had (well, technically 'have' - until May 1 2005 ) a double bust because of the incorrect inter AND an omitted formation - at least that's the way I read the old rules however, there is definately a point in what you're saying - especially since it's not clear how would they deside the difference between incorrect inter (infringement, O points) and "no clear intent" to build, and if there was an advantage in that as for QuoteNext question with respect to the removal of the NJ - if you have points out of view on exit, is it an omission or just a failure to show with no credit for the points built? it will be 'no credit' (just like NJ) exit was an issue for quite some teams in Croatia (because of the wicked Russian heli tailgate ) judges just did not start scoring until they see the first judgeble formation and no i don't think that it will encourage to cheat with blocks out the door Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #29 February 3, 2005 even under the old rules, I think, you could not have the double bust scenario, although, in last years test on this issue, some judges scored it that way. I would be very surprised if you could ever get hit with the busted inter AND the omission, especially since Omniskore won't allow that to register. Ok, so here's a new one. With the current rules and fefe's analysis of the J, what keeps teams from exiting whereever they want in the sequence. If judges are going to start scoring without a penalty at the first scoring formation, why not just pick your strongest exit and start there? I suspect that WOULD result in an omission. Now, is that so much different than having a block out the door out of frame (whether intentional or not) with video picking up on the third point and scoring starting there. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Steve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RozeAY 0 #30 February 3, 2005 QuoteOk, so here's a new one. With the current rules and fefe's analysis of the J, what keeps teams from exiting whereever they want in the sequence. If judges are going to start scoring without a penalty at the first scoring formation, why not just pick your strongest exit and start there? I suspect that WOULD result in an omission. Now, is that so much different than having a block out the door out of frame (whether intentional or not) with video picking up on the third point and scoring starting there. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I would think that would be an omission. If your dive is 12 D E P and you take the D out the door, and you're in frame the whole time, you omitted the top and bottom of the 12 and would get 2 omissions. But if video "loses" you out the door and shows back up on the D, then I suppose it wouldn't be an omission. Other than integrity, there is incentive to have "poor" video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #31 February 3, 2005 Exactly - my point is - if you are out of frame, how do the judges know if you show intent. Granted, it may depend on how "out of frame" you are. But, if its bad, how do they tell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RozeAY 0 #32 February 3, 2005 They can't tell. My guess would be they give the competitors the benefit of the doubt that they attempted each formation. So if you omit it on camera, you're in trouble, if you omit it off camera, lucky you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #33 February 3, 2005 Wow - I thought people want to be fast, not just "lawyer" their way to higher scores. It must be a lot more cutthroat at the big meets than just our little area. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #34 February 3, 2005 Idea wasn't presented to suggest that any team would do that. Any team that would do that wouldn't last too long in this sport given the ridicule from their fellow competitors. It was merely to point out what I see as a hole in the rules (which is not a new hole btw). That said, I have seen a lot of "lawyering" at some of the big meets. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #35 February 3, 2005 Do I know what Rhetorical means? Sure I do. and it is fun to pick at stuff ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #36 February 4, 2005 QuoteIn Reply To ... what keeps teams from exiting whereever they want in the sequence. If judges are going to start scoring without a penalty at the first scoring formation, why not just pick your strongest exit and start there? I suspect that WOULD result in an omission. Now, is that so much different than having a block out the door out of frame (whether intentional or not) with video picking up on the third point and scoring starting there. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would think that would be an omission. If your dive is 12 D E P and you take the D out the door, and you're in frame the whole time, you omitted the top and bottom of the 12 and would get 2 omissions. But if video "loses" you out the door and shows back up on the D, then I suppose it wouldn't be an omission. Other than integrity, there is incentive to have "poor" video. agree but - I don't really see much benefit in this scenario for the team - I doubt any serious team would do that for rethoretical purposes , I see two more problems - videoperson still have to show the exit - otherwise judges have trouble figuring the start of working time, which may result in 20% penalty - if camera shows exit (say, team launches Meeker as if it plans to build 12), then 'looses' team for 2 seconds, then camera is back to show D - ok, judges don't see the 'intent', but they know it was there - because you're too quick as a cameraflier I may add that it is doable, but rather messy (plus after the French block 12 video technique in Croatia I don't really believe in 'creative' cameraflying for competition ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #37 February 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteHow can you have a center point issue when there is no defined rotation? sure, stupid me Are you agreeing, or mocking me? serious, I really don't know and want to learn - we aren't good enough to try and push the envelope {{edit: YET}}. But Kurt's most recent article seems to agree with me. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #38 February 4, 2005 QuoteAre you agreeing, or mocking me I never mock FS brothers and sisters . No I seriously agree. I was just so much obsessed with centercrossing for the last year (from the cameraflier point of view) that I just forgot that it deals with rotations only. I even checked it with the Committee. They are very clear - do new 5 anyway you like, no centerpoint issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #39 February 4, 2005 QuoteI even checked it with the Committee. They are very clear - That's what I call service. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 February 7, 2005 Skyleagues latest update indicates the rules also indicate a women's team must also have a female cameraman. Just a comment - the need and definition of a separate female competition class has been beat to death here. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #41 February 7, 2005 QuoteSkyleagues latest update indicates the rules also indicate a women's team must also have a female cameraman. Hmmm. That contradicts with what I heard from the Committee (which was: male videographer still can jump with a female team but won't be eligible to receive medals). Let me find where Kurt gets this from, because it might seriously change my plans for the next 2 years . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #42 February 7, 2005 QuoteSkyleagues latest update indicates the rules also indicate a women's team must also have a female cameraman. Just a comment - the need and definition of a separate female competition class has been beat to death here. I was told a male can video, but not medal. 6.3.6.4 QuoteB) Any other person. This Videographer is not eligible to receive awards and medals. In this case there may be no more than five (5) competitors in a 4-Way team and no more than nine (9) competitors in an 8-Way team. This Videographer may jump only as a Videographer and is subject to the same regulations as other competitors on the team. Option B is valid for 2005 and 2006 only. A Videographer may be replaced at any time during the competition, (with the agreement of the Meet Director) in which case the replacement Videographer will not be eligible for awards and medals. But that could have been changed."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #43 February 7, 2005 Fyoder and Ron - Yeah, so that's the same read I had and it makes sense with what Kurt posted relative to Part A vs Part B. So I agree and the details of part B are interesting. It wouldn't be an issue if there wasn't a separate category for gender in a sport where gender isn't an input to overall skill. Edit: Fyoder - in that, I don't see Kurt's posting conflicting at all with what you and Ron had heard. Part B is pretty clear that "that flavor of cameraman" isn't considered part of the team. Nice little conflict written in there isn't it? (Thus, a "Woman's Team" must have a female cameraman - when the cameraman is considered part of the team = Part A, no conflict) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxyroxtail 0 #44 February 8, 2005 Where's Minxxy - We have a cameraperson who could actually medal with us - now all we need's a few years of 4 training!!! ________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #45 February 8, 2005 QuoteWhere's Minxxy - she'll be back, she can't stay away - FF4 did prove it, an excellent all female team, now just to go to the full dive pool ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #46 February 8, 2005 I just received another confirmation from a committee member: male cameraflier can jump, but won't receive medal. If there will be a change in the status of cameraflier for female teams, it will be decided in 2006 only, and won't come into effect until 2007. QuoteNice little conflict written in there isn't it? There is no conflict: 4.1 Teams may consist of competitors of either or both sexes, except in the female event where (except for the videographer) all competitors must be female (see 6.3.6.4). And 6.3.6.4 gives an option of 'cameraflier without a gender ' (or nationality, for the matter). Either way, from this year at 1st category event an 'outside' cameraflier must be entered as part of delegation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #47 February 8, 2005 QuoteI just received another confirmation from a committee member You are very handy to have around."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #48 February 8, 2005 QuoteThere is no conflict:. I just meant in terms of concept, not a real rules conflict. It was wordsmithed well enough to get around the inherent problem. Nicely done really. We're on the same page. THANKS (you are handy to have around) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyminxx 0 #49 February 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhere's Minxxy - she'll be back, she can't stay away - FF4 did prove it, an excellent all female team, now just to go to the full dive pool Hey I *am* here, I am just a lil busy.. y'know workin n all.. oh and trying to figure out how the heck I can get my team back in the air this season... Oh and we won't be movin up just yet Rehm.. not while a certain Carolina team are still in our class. We have to give em somthing to worry about while they are basking in intermediate That and the fact that we are still tyring to figure out how to go more than six months without being 3 looking for 1.... I *am* working on it though.......(can't you hear the cogs???) You are led through your lifetime by the inner learning creature, the playful spiritual being that is your real self.-Richard Bach Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 February 8, 2005 to anyone - 8-way pool changes is it only 12, 17 and P? I don't see anything else here but my old cards are at my house. Edit: nevermind, FeFe earlier sent me one doc that had the changes..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
