Team / Skydiving Ethics

[karlm 0]

Is it ethical to steal/poach a member of a team that is already in place and training?

If you were in a committed team, and you knew that a team was looking to steal/poach or approach a member for your 4-Way, how would you feel?

Would you take the person who was doing the stealing/poaching to task?

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[mjosparky 3]

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Is it ethical to steal/poach a member of a team that is already in place and training?

If you were in a committed team, and you knew that a team was looking to steal/poach or approach a member for your 4-Way, how would you feel?

Would you take the person who was doing the stealing/poaching to task?

No, I would take the team member that got poached to task. He is the one that made the commitment to your team and then backed out.

Attempting to poach is just trying to improve your position.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[karlm 0]

Yip, besides taking the poached member aside and "B*&th Slapping" them, for their lack of loyalty and commitment.

I for one will have a good go at the person doing the poaching, in my opinion it's a major ethical issue.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[vibeke 0]

I think it depends on how its done!

E.g. what has the team commitment been, what objectives planned. If commitment and objectives on the other team suit the jumper better, and no real big investments has gone into the original team, then I find it naturally. However it should be done offseason!

You cant blame a team looking for a member, for being open to good jumpers, just because that jumper is committed. I thinks its between the "poached" (what ever that means) member and his/her original team.
Unless its aggressive headhunting - that would seem a bit unfair.

_________________________________________________________
Your success and happiness, is in direct proportions to your commitment to excellence, regardless of your chosen field of endeavour.

[karlm 0]

I believe that if somebody is in a team they cannot be touched, if they on their own talk or have meetings with an alternative team it's fine. But to openly approach and talk to a committed team member, thats just not ethical.

No one can blame a team for shopping around if they need a new member, but one can take issue with them approaching jumpers already in teams.

It all depends on how it is approached.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[Mikevetter 0]

hi karl
i have been in national teams for almost 15 years and i believe it is most about the spirit the team has together. if a team is able to create that deeper spirit where everyone feels in the right place together with the right people this team and its individual members are "untouchable", not from the outside but from the inside. All of the teammembers have the fire to stay together, everyone feels proud to be a part of that special group.

dont waste time to blame this guy or the other team - there are people out there who will share the dream of your team.

keep up the spirit
always blue skies
mike

[karlm 0]

Hi Mike

You are correct, the combination of spirit, togetherness and ability to function as a team will forever be the stronger force. My team is solid with a good commitment.

I am not to worried as I know my team mate will not leave, but I cannot but wonder about the integrity of the team or coach willing to steal other players.

I am not going to get into too many specifics as this is not the place, I was just curious as to the viewpoint of the dz.com community.

There are great teams out there and there will be great teams to come in the future, and nothing can beat a good competition, between some real solid teams. Thats what I live for.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[rehmwa 2]

What the other team is doing isn't your business. They made no promises to you. (But if it was friends, I'd 'feel' a bit angry - still doesn't change the fact they didn't make any promises to my team.)

Only your teammate made a commitment and there you found out he stuck with it. Good for him and the team. No one can steal him, only he can choose to leave. That's who you are dealing with.

I wouldn't worry about things you can't control. What you can do is kick butt enough this year that your teammates all want to commit again next season too.

Oh, and cleanly beat this other team in competition frequently and decisively.

Edit: This is less of a formal "ethics" question than application of the Golden Rule

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jlmiracle 7]

The question you need to ask yourself is - Do you want someone on your team that is not going to give you a commitment or if they do, and then flip flop on you, would you really want them on your team?



Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 7]

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Is it ethical to steal/poach a member of a team that is already in place and training?

I would not go after a person already on a team.

However if I was on a team that is not meeting it's commitments...Such as we planned on jumping 2 weekends a mth, and thats what we agreed on. Then the plan changes to one weekend a mth. It kind of makes the "deal" void if BOTH sides don't keep the commitment. Or if the deal was one weekend a mth, then the three wnat to jump every day. Again the original "deal" is all what the commit ment was for.


A team is a commitment of ALL the members. If the plan changes

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bliston 0]

Just playing devils advocate, but what if a pro-team came to you and offered you a slot or a tryout, would you go?

Everybody wants to be part of the best team they can, and if someone on your team gets a great opportunity to jump to the next level, is it "ethical" to hold them back.

My team is all in for a second year and we're all committed to each other... but come on, if I or anyone on my team got offered a a spot on a fully sponsored team, I'd hope everyone would give him (or me) their blessing. And if that's something you could agree with, is it a double standard to think somebody moving from an Int. to and Adv. class team or an Adv. to an Open team shouldn't see it the same way?

Whoever said, "it's early in the year" has a very valid point. It's one thing if everybody's already invested a ton of time and money, if you've just done a few team hand shakes, it's something else.

Lastly, what if the team dynamics aren't that good. Is it fair to expect someone to keep dumping time and the sh**loads of money that 4-way costs if they aren't totally happy when a better opportunity is around the corner? You'll know what I mean if you ever complete a full season with a team that never really comes together.

I know a lot of this doesn't apply to your specific situation, but it raises some good questions.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[karlm 0]

Thanks for all the responses.

Looks like I might be takign this whole thing a bit to personal

We cannot make people skydive with us and if they choose to move to "greener pastures" then I suppose we should let them. Teams change people move, and it all come back to the one basic element we all look for. To skydive in a team we feel will be beneficial to our education, our goals and to have fun doing it.

To all those in a competitive team - Good Luck for the 2005 Season.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[skytash 0]

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The question you need to ask yourself is - Do you want someone on your team that is not going to give you a commitment or if they do, and then flip flop on you, would you really want them on your team?



Judy

That was my first thought as well - a bit like being 'girl on the side'. How could you be sure there wasn't another?

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[mjosparky 3]

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My team is all in for a second year and we're all committed to each other

If someone on your team or any other team wants to leave during the second season, for what ever reason, you were not all committed to each other now where you?

Commit:

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to obligate or pledge oneself

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Promise:

1 a : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified b : a legally binding declaration that gives the person to whom it is made a right to expect or to claim the performance or forbearance of a specified act***

Maybe you should say, "I will jump with you toads until I get a better offer."


Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

• Quote

[bliston 0]

Fair critique, but they are far from "toads" and a better offer would have to be a spot with the big boys.

You are probably right, "committed" might not be the right word. We've all agreed to jump together for another year and we all understand that if someone was presented with a truly great opportunity that are roles as friends would override our roles as teammates. The lucky fellow would leave with a jealous pat on the back and a sincere smile that wished him the best of luck. In short, he'd go on good terms with everyone.

While your comments are valid for the sake of the forum argument, the dynamics of any team - including mine - are more complex than that.

Anyone that decides to "leave" a team should think long and hard about it. Consider the timing, the time and emotions vested, the potential loss of friendships. After really thinking things through, the person should then make an informed decision about whether the advantages of the new team are truly worth it.

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[mjosparky 3]

It sounds like you have an understanding among the team mates. As long as everyone feels the same way and you will remain friends that is good. Friendship is more important than skydiving, even a slot on Az. Airspeed. Good luck this year and jump safe.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[karlm 0]

Hey All

Thanks once again for all the input, does seem that there is a general view on this. If a team member wants to leave due to a "better" offer, there is very little on can do about it. Rather focus the energy inwards towards the team and make it fun to skydive.

I agree if your all good friends, even if one leave for a "better" opportunity there will be all the support and understanding, from the team.

I would never force a team member to stay, irrespective of agreed commitment etc.

Good luck to all those training for their Nationals.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[piisfish 135]

is it a team from another DZ or also from JSC ??

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[snatch 0]

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i have been in national teams for almost 15 years and i believe it is most about the spirit the team has together. if a team is able to create that deeper spirit where everyone feels in the right place together with the right people this team and its individual members are "untouchable", not from the outside but from the inside. All of the teammembers have the fire to stay together, everyone feels proud to be a part of that special group.

I disagree

being in a 4 way team is about hard work, aggression, commitment, learning the blocks, learning the randoms, putting it all together, practise, practise, practise, practise, individual merits, individual personalitys, great coaching, family commitments and patience. Wanting to be the best and stuffing everyone who gets in the way.... this my friend is 4 Way.

Not sitting around a picnic table humming mantras to reach' the deeper spirit' ! what sort of shit is this? So basically from what your theory is:

if we create a deeper spirit we will feel the fire and be untouchable and be part of a special group?

mikevetter are you taking anything illegal ?