Using mirrors by intermediate teams

[AMax 0]

I have a question about engineering for intermediate teams.

Intermediate pool contains blocks that seem to work better when mirror images are used.
Example:
Block 1 on terminal and exit. In most cases Pt and Tail need to do a lot of "flying around" to get the cat grips straight and spin the block contr-clockwise. Spinning the block clockwise seems to be easier but results in mirror image picture for Pt and Tail.
There are also 6 and 21. Airspeed exits them as mirrors, apparently to avoid the situation when front piece needs to move uphill.

So my question is how many intermediate teams use the mirror images? Also, it would be interesting to know what more advanced people think about an idea of using mirros by intermediate teams.

It seems to me that using the mirrors by intermediate teams can potentially be rewarding, especially when the next goal in moving up to advanced class. On the other hand, I am not sure it is a good idea to try mirrors for a team that still needs to learn a lot about the basics and plans to make 150 training jumps.

Thanks in advance for your input
Anton

[usskydiver 0]

Don't forget the "fire and forget" technique...it works well to avoid certain memories....

Ron...weigh in..

Tim T.
Team Paraclete
8 way guy...but do 4 way video, on occasion

[hipgnosis 0]

One thing that you need to consider is what your other teammates feel about it. Some people like the consistency of doing a block the same way and/or don't want to deal with a slightly trickier memory game.


Bill

[BikerBabe 0]

How new are you and your teammates to 4-way?

Do you know what is supposedly "hard" yet? Do you/they have the preconception already that mirrors (and/or memory blocks) are difficult?

I ask because when I started, I and my teammates were so new, we had no preconceptions about what was hard and what was easy yet...it was all equally difficult! So we went advanced right away. Jump right in with both feet, I say!

errr...maybe I'm not the best person to answer this question.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Albatross 0]

Bottom line is how many jumps are you going to to do, how much tunnel time, and what are the strengths of your team? Avoiding mirros is a way to see each formation more. By not doing the mirrors in intermediate you get more practice at the move. But more importantly most int teams have less experience, have seen the formations less and often do fewer jumps. Remeber consitant blocks and random builds will always make for more speed.

Chris

[vibeke 0]

Im not too sure how your Intermediate are different from the AAA class. In Denmark we had a beginners class with all randoms plus 12 blocks, and 40 seconds working time 5 points. (However our national FS committee class is working to change it, to match your A class, to be able to participate in the ESL.)
The Open class is just as your AAA class.

I got my license summer 2003. In feb. me and two others had been at a tunnel + trainingcamp with a playercoach and shared 12 hours of basic in the tunnel.
Later in the spring 2 of us participated a national competition in beginners class. We realized that much of the things we had trained when creeping was not the fastest way to make points. So we decided - during the competition - to do slotswitchers and mirrors, whenever it was the most efficient way. And I wished we had not been taught the just one way. With slotswitchers we did 11 points in our best round and 6,9 average. We could have done more if we had trained it from the beginning. We would have had fewer mental obstacles.

Later last summer, the three of us from the tunnelcamp and the fourth jumper from our last competition went to russia and did 60 training jumps. We did mostly block training - and came home to participate at the nationals in the AAA class. We only did 6,7 average (12 in best round, 0 in the worst), but the best thing was, that we no longer focused on remembering how we used to do it, when engineering, but tried several options and chose the fastest. Without feeling that is was in any way wrong. Because we had tried most combinations and felt confident.

In total we did 20 jumps on DeLand. 30 in Denmark, including the competitions, and 60 in Russia.

Long post - just thought Id share my experience in the beginners class and up through the AAA class. Our team wished we had learned the slotswitchers and mirrors from the start!!

[Ron 7]

Quote

Intermediate pool contains blocks that seem to work better when mirror images are used.
Example:
Block 1 on terminal and exit. In most cases Pt and Tail need to do a lot of "flying around" to get the cat grips straight and spin the block contr-clockwise. Spinning the block clockwise seems to be easier but results in mirror image picture for Pt and Tail.

Ask these questions:
How many jumps can I afford to spend on each block and can I afford to train the same block TWO ways? Can I afford the jumps it is going to take to get the memory so comfertable that a mirror is natural?

I would bet that a new team just starting out the answer to most of those is no.

Your exit to break times on block one is not going to matter that much at that level. Think about it like this...One exit that takes an extra second, or 3 reps of the block that take .5 seconds more each.

As a new team you need to get as much familiarity as you can in the both the blocks and randoms....Familiarity will make for more confident and faster moves.

Quote

There are also 6 and 21. Airspeed exits them as mirrors, apparently to avoid the situation when front piece needs to move uphill.

The key word there is AIRSPEED. They are professionals that jump and coach for a living. Last I checked the newest member of Airspeed was still head and shoulders above the average jumper.

Plus they will make 500+ jumps in a season and already have thousands of jumps.

Quote

It seems to me that using the mirrors by intermediate teams can potentially be rewarding, especially when the next goal in moving up to advanced class. On the other hand, I am not sure it is a good idea to try mirrors for a team that still needs to learn a lot about the basics and plans to make 150 training jumps.

You have to ask yourself what is more important...Scores now, or a mirror foundation for the future? Remember when making that choice that you have 150 jumps to work on the basics...I would rather not add more difficult concepts to such a limited jump plan.

But the choice is yours...I personally don't think that the reward is worth the cost.

BTW my team does not do mirrors, we do double slot switching.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AMax 0]

Absolutely!

[AMax 0]

Thank you all for your input.

I had a feeling that keeping it simple would be more rewarding and now this feeling is reinforced.

Ron, I have to admit that I completely agree with everything you just said Oh wait, this is not a speakers corner ... Thanks God

• Quote

[rehmwa 2]

We're in intermediate and there not a single launch that can't be done standard. Also;

I like to muck with figuring out the shortest transitions - it's a math nerd thing, but other than the whole (9 in and out of 11 and A and D) thing, I haven't found much opportunity to play with it. Many times something will feel like it should be faster, but when you creep it, it doesn't matter as the typical perceived shortcut will have to back out sometime later, or the normal cheats removes the savings you thought you had identified.

Best to stick to whatever continuity plan you have, learn the m&m's when you move to AAA, then after that start looking for tenths of seconds when you guys are doing a thousand practice jumps a season.

Likely right now, you're looking for 2's and 5's seconds, not fractions. Sometimes, we're just looking for the clean exits, let alone the little stuff.

I'd prioritze 3 things for any AA team, clean exits, good rhythm, making the catches/stops. We're on our 2nd year and the catches/stops are still hard, and the other 2 are just now coming on board.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AMax 0]

Could not agree more with you and Ron.

Thanks for clarification.

So the bottom line is:
Advantages of little technical details how to spin the block on the hill will not be obvious until the exits are very consistent and therefore the delays between the exit and first key/first point are minimized.
The main challenge of the long page is “brain work” – more visual references. For most people keeping the mental part of the game as simple as possible will probably be the most effective strategy for perfecting individual techniques as well as team rhythm.

Would you agree?

[rehmwa 2]

toggle and jettison
box man frog modified
and always watch the horizen

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants