Learning to swoop

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Ok so I am starting attempts at HP landings. Started with double fronts straight in. Progressed to 90's to doubles, and made my first attempt at a 180 the other day. I realize there is alot of more info needed to properly give advice. Expereicne, canopy, WL, etc. etc. I also realize that lower number jumpers tend to get flamed to death on this site. I have some specific questions, but not trying to open a flame session either, so I would appreciate to continue this conversation with a PM if there is a canopy pilot out there willing to help answer some basic questions without publicly flaming me. I realize others beginning the same discipline might have the same questions, but I just don't want to feed any fires. Thanks in advance.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[RichLees 0]

Mate -
I'm not one to flame, but I would encourage you to invest in some coaching. Swooping's dangerous enough without trying to figure it out through forums and books. That said, the canopy and its pilot is worth reading a couple of times alongside a course or three.
A wise man told me to learn from others' mistakes because I wouldn't live long enough to make them all myself.
Swoop far! And do it far from the stiffs who go everywhere on half brakes ;-)
Rich

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Thanks for the reply, and advice. Unfortunately I do not have a canopy coach that does HP landings available to me at my DZ (small 182 DZ with a small staff) I have ordered BG's book, but still waiting for it to arrive. I plan to attend a course when I can, but just looking for a few answers to a few specific questions I have in the meantime.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[AggieDave 6]

What state are you in? I bet we can find you a respected canopy pilot near by that you could get some coaching from.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Missouri, near St. Louis

I really do want some quality coching and would love to find some!

Money sucks though

Just ask my DZO my account is always upside down lol

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[AggieDave 6]

Mikel Stevens is at W. Tenn. Nick is from St. Louis...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

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I have ordered BG's book, but still waiting for it to arrive.

Where did you order it from, China? Is it being shipped via container ship through the gulf and up the mississippi?

The book shouldn't take more than a few days to reach you from anywhere in the lower 48. If you really wanted to do this 'right', you would have at least waited the couple of days for the book to show up, and read it before you started swooping with no coaching or mentor.

Even then, just reading the book isn't going to really cut it, but at least you could have done that.

My read on the situation so far - no coach, no mentor, not willing to wait for the book, looking for adivce on the internet. It all adds up to you just stopping now and giving up swooping. You haven't made any good choices and I think you know it. Why esle would you want to conceal your inquires over PMs only? Hoping you'll stumble onto a swooper who will agree with you, or maybe you just want to deal with one 'hater' at a time when they don't agree?

In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of jumpers killed in the last decade or so did so under an open canopy. How about giving that part of skydiving a little repect, and either slow your roll and ease into these things, or do it right and get some training and real-world, first-hand information.

I'd love to learn to fly a helicopter, but I can't afford to rent one and pay an instructor. My solution is not to buy a cheap helo and learn on my own, my solution is to wait until such time that I can afford to do it properly. See? Respect....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4d5AeAi7g

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Nick? St. Louis? Nick who?

Are you referring to Nick Batsch? I think he is from somewhere nearby. Never met or talked to him, but I know guys around hear that have and everyone talks about him.

It would be amazing to get coaching from someone like that, but just because he is a pro swooper doesn't mean he would be intersested in coaching right? Like I said I have no idea. I have never even talked to the guy, but I am definitely game for any help.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[AggieDave 6]

Yeah, Nick Batsche.

Who cares if he is a pro swooper? He's still a guy and he still tries to make some coin coaching to support his jumping and life. He's one of the best canopy pilots in the world and I bet if you ask, he'd be happy to coach.

"Pro-swooper" doesn't mean much since the PST died a few years ago, though.

Hell, I'm a "pro-swooper" and I'm just a guy, although I'm not on the same level as Nick...


(I'm much taller!)

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Dave your the fucking reason why I requested a PM. You are a fucking asshole you know that? Take your fucking skygod attitude somewhere else. Sorry I am not at a big DZ with tons of HP canopy pilot coahes to assist me. All one has to do is go read all the forums where you attack young jumpers to realize you are a fucking asshole. You claim to do it for safety, but in reality you are just a sad dickhead who likes to makes himself feel big and accomplished online. Try having that attitude face to face at the bonfire. Wouldn't be too long before someone feed you a fucking knuckle sandwhich. I ordered the book yesterday online, excuse the fuck outta me it hasn't got here yet. This is NOT soley your fucking sight, or sport. It's MINE too. Quit being such a douchebag that you actually scare away new jumpers from asking questions. You are doing a disservice to the sport by doing so, even if you justify it as being the safety police. FUCK OFF

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Thanks Aggie,

I think I will give him a shout. I know he requested my on FB so I will send him a line or two. Couldn't hurt anyway.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[davelepka 4]

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You are doing a disservice to the sport

I'm content to let the people read my stuff and draw their own conclusions. I doubt the majority would agree with your above conclusion.

BTW - ask anyone who knows, me, I'm the same guy here, there or anywhere. I don't make this shit up, I just put in the proper perspective. Everything I wrote in my response to you was just that, a response to what you wrote. You wrote it, you put it out there, no deal with it (hint - calling me names isn't dealing with anything except maybe your hurt feelings).

[wildcard451 0]

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Dave your the fucking reason why I requested a PM. You are a fucking asshole you know that? Take your fucking skygod attitude somewhere else. Sorry I am not at a big DZ with tons of HP canopy pilot coahes to assist me. All one has to do is go read all the forums where you attack young jumpers to realize you are a fucking asshole. You claim to do it for safety, but in reality you are just a sad dickhead who likes to makes himself feel big and accomplished online. Try having that attitude face to face at the bonfire. Wouldn't be too long before someone feed you a fucking knuckle sandwhich. I ordered the book yesterday online, excuse the fuck outta me it hasn't got here yet. This is NOT soley your fucking sight, or sport. It's MINE too. Quit being such a douchebag that you actually scare away new jumpers from asking questions. You are doing a disservice to the sport by doing so, even if you justify it as being the safety police. FUCK OFF

This made me laugh.

As did Dave comment on Nick's stature. Full of good times, this thread is.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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You are doing a disservice to the sport

I'm content to let the people read my stuff and draw their own conclusions. I doubt the majority would agree with your above conclusion.

BTW - ask anyone who knows, me, I'm the same guy here, there or anywhere. I don't make this shit up, I just put in the proper perspective. Everything I wrote in my response to you was just that, a response to what you wrote. You wrote it, you put it out there, no deal with it (hint - calling me names isn't dealing with anything except maybe your hurt feelings).

I wonder if we did a poll of new jumpers that are hesistant to ask anything online because of people JUST like you. I bet the numbers would be high. In fact I have talked to several students/and new jumpers that are affraid to ask questions on DZ.com or anywhere else because of people just like you. I call that a disservice to the sport. You disagree fine. Let your arrogance keep you up on that high horse.

Here is a little secrete. You probably make a shitty teacher/instructor, or are a liar. No good teacher talks like you do here on DZ.com. Never, ever, have the great teachers talked like you do on this site. You wonder why? Because it is ineffective. It is human nature that when the person thinks the other person speaking is an asshole they stop listening! Wow rocket science isn't it!

I very sincerely doubt you would talk to me the way you have on here face to face at a boogie bonfire. If you did you would probably end up in physical pain, and it would just relect the fact that you have not learned a lesson or two from a good old ass kicking.

The "proper perspective" is you assuming that your perspective is always right. Any wise man knows this is not always so.

You might have more experience skydiving. I do not deny that, but if you ask me your social skills either suck or you are putting on a front online. Either way it is hard for me to respond to you without name calling, and it had NOTHING to do with "hurt feelings" lol. It has to do with you being an ASSHAT.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[danielcroft 2]

Dave is giving you good advice. If you put your ego aside for a second and try to understand the message, you'd see that he's actually one of a very small number of people who've read this thread and felt enough to respond.

Personally, I don't have any issue with you wanting to learn to swoop but I think you should at least consider going somewhere else to get some coaching or do a canopy course. You may be a natural and may be actually quite safe but you really do need to acknowledge that you're stacking the odds against yourself when you try to self teach.

Here's another suggestion: you're at a C182 DZ, so there must be a few people on the ground when you're coming in to land. Get someone to video your landings and find a respected coach who would be willing to review your landings online and at least give you some feedback. It's not as good as having a defined curriculum or having help you in person but it's going to be at least helpful in giving you something to work off.

Now please, try to refrain from blowing up at Dave, he's actually right and while he might not have said what you wanted to hear or the way you wanted to hear it, your reaction is just confirming what he's saying.

[vortexr1 0]

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I have ordered BG's book, but still waiting for it to arrive.

Where did you order it from, China? Is it being shipped via container ship through the gulf and up the mississippi?

The book shouldn't take more than a few days to reach you from anywhere in the lower 48. If you really wanted to do this 'right', you would have at least waited the couple of days for the book to show up, and read it before you started swooping with no coaching or mentor.

Even then, just reading the book isn't going to really cut it, but at least you could have done that.

My read on the situation so far - no coach, no mentor, not willing to wait for the book, looking for adivce on the internet. It all adds up to you just stopping now and giving up swooping. You haven't made any good choices and I think you know it. Why esle would you want to conceal your inquires over PMs only? Hoping you'll stumble onto a swooper who will agree with you, or maybe you just want to deal with one 'hater' at a time when they don't agree?

In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of jumpers killed in the last decade or so did so under an open canopy. How about giving that part of skydiving a little repect, and either slow your roll and ease into these things, or do it right and get some training and real-world, first-hand information.

I'd love to learn to fly a helicopter, but I can't afford to rent one and pay an instructor. My solution is not to buy a cheap helo and learn on my own, my solution is to wait until such time that I can afford to do it properly. See? Respect....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4d5AeAi7g

Obviously you didnt read his post about not FlAmmmming HIS ass.Damn.....Bet you couldnt type fast enough ...Funny, bet your the man under canopy though..lol...

[EFS4LIFE 0]

I in fact have video of my turns and landings from the ground and from a helmet cam perspective. I AM looking for someone experienced to look at those, and give me advice. Hence the request for a PM. I DO NOT have a HP canopy pilot coah available at my small DZ to help me....that is why I posted this thread. Dave is not being helpful in anyway. He is being an ass. Tell me just ONE helpful thing he said from his previous post.......no? Can't see one peice of helpful advice can you? Hmmm. Maybe you call "stop swooping now" as helpful advice. I don't know LMAO doesn't seem very helpful to me. It seems like a personal blast. Someone PLEASE set me straight if I am being unlogical. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY PEOPLE SAY DZ.COM IS ONLY GOOD FOR CLASSIFIEDS TO BUY GEAR! Wake up just how full of themselves are people like this?

Quit backing someone because of their jump #'s and actually demand that if you ask for advice or help they give it to you, or shut the fuck up. I am not being unreasonable at my jump #'s and experience to start swooping. How many at my level started? Sorry I don't have the coaching available, guess what NOT my fault. It just ISN'T there to be had. Go cup Dave's balls and stroke his cock if you want, but he IS being a dick and you are only adding to HIS ego, not mine.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[danielcroft 2]

Ok, I'll translate for you - this is how I read Dave's post (sorry if I'm getting this wrong Dave):

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Where did you order it from, China? Is it being shipped via container ship through the gulf and up the mississippi?

You really should have the book already. If you were serious about learning you'd have done the preparation which is relatively easy to come by.

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The book shouldn't take more than a few days to reach you from anywhere in the lower 48. If you really wanted to do this 'right', you would have at least waited the couple of days for the book to show up, and read it before you started swooping with no coaching or mentor.

Again, preparation for something this serious is very important. You don't appear to be making much effort to get the low hanging fruit taken care of.

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Even then, just reading the book isn't going to really cut it, but at least you could have done that.

I think that speaks for itself.

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My read on the situation so far - no coach, no mentor, not willing to wait for the book, looking for adivce on the internet. It all adds up to you just stopping now and giving up swooping. You haven't made any good choices and I think you know it. Why esle would you want to conceal your inquires over PMs only? Hoping you'll stumble onto a swooper who will agree with you, or maybe you just want to deal with one 'hater' at a time when they don't agree?

You're making some pretty poor choices. That, on top of your jump numbers and lack of planning and investment in actual training tools that will help you, you appear to be backing yourself into a corner to make bad decisions and have bad planning when flying - i.e. you're high risk.

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In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of jumpers killed in the last decade or so did so under an open canopy. How about giving that part of skydiving a little repect, and either slow your roll and ease into these things, or do it right and get some training and real-world, first-hand information.

You're self helping yourself into one of the most dangerous aspects of skydiving. When you, by your own word and behavior, show that you're not prioritizing learning and safety (i.e. respect for the discipline) you're actually putting yourself in the really high risk braket. So, your options are to slow down a little or to get some serious coaching, or be super unsafe and be at a really high risk of hurting or killing yourself.

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I'd love to learn to fly a helicopter, but I can't afford to rent one and pay an instructor. My solution is not to buy a cheap helo and learn on my own, my solution is to wait until such time that I can afford to do it properly. See? Respect....

Here's someone who is doing something similar to what you're doing, just as an example to hopefully give you an idea of the situation from an outsider's perspective.

What was your response to someone who took the time to write several paragraphs with the basic message that you need to slow down or really get coaching or you're going to get hurt? That he's an asshole and he should fuck off. Not to mention saying that he's a liar and putting all of DZ.com into a poor light.

Personally I think you've taken his response a little too hard and failed to really understand what he's trying to say. Dave's not always easy to hear just because of the way he says stuff but please think about what he's saying. He's right.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Ok let me break it down for you. Go read all of Dave's posted to all threads. You will be hard pressed to find anywhere where he is not ripping young jumpers. That is a fact. Do you want to me to copy and paste all of them? Although your interpretations of what Dave is saying (nice job BTW) seems sensible that is NOT what he said in his posts. Let Dave back up his own posts (he is a man and capable I hope) otherwise step off please. This is not the first time I have had this arrogant MF'er lurk me and post assinine statements and I am sure won't be the last. Hence the reason why I and a WHOLE bunch of newer jumpers don't post shit. I hope the moderators actually read this and actually do a non-biased investigation. Want to believe it or not crap like this HURTS our sport by making newer jumpers affraid to ask questions and learn.

I post I don't want to get flammed and look what happens? LOL the biggest flamer comes out right away.

For shit and giggles lets take a poll. How many HP canopy pilots started in the 300 jump range? I bet I am not the first, and definitely not the last.

By the way. The death under a good canopy thing.....ya most of those are experienced canopy piolts with over a thousand jumps. What can you reply to that?

How about you try to help a brother out when he has questions and not be a condesending prick to him?

Fuck Davelepka and fuck anyone like him. He is an ASSHAT. Peace out.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[danielcroft 2]

I'll stop speaking for Dave, he is man enough to speak up for himself and has done so in the past. I wouldn't hold your breath though.

I started learning to swoop way before then but that was just using double fronts up high. I did a canopy course at 15 jumps (it helped sure but not a whole lot) I've spent a lot of time reading (yes, I have BG's book) and getting coaching for as many people as will help me but have had a couple of experienced friends (thousands of jumps each) helping me consistently for years. Some people's advice I've learned to ignore because it disagrees with the majority opinion. Yeah, I'm lucky that I have that support but I've also spent a lot of time and energy focusing on it (not as much as I could have mind you). I'm currently organizing a canopy course at my own DZ with flight-1 and I'll be attending the essentials course because the basics are important.

This is just coming from me now: You *are* in a high risk zone right now so you need to be really careful. I would make a point of slowing it down at least until you get a chance to read Brian's book. I've read it but it does take a while to digest some of the concepts. Also have a look around for "The Canopy Pilot's Handbook" by Bryan Burke and make sure you read Billvon's downsizing checklist on the site and start working towards those skills. You don't have a whole lot of jumps (nor do I), you've already moved on to 180s which means that you're not only getting an early start but you're moving through your turn radii pretty quickly. You're doing all this alone with very little help or support which means you could be doing stuff really dangerously wrong and not even realizing it. I'm not saying you are, please don't feel like I'm being patronizing because I'm not trying to be. The videos that you've taken (ground video is *way* better) will be really useful in getting some advice online (I've organized to have this done in addition to the coaching/mentoring I already get). But you really need to get your shit together and do it.

Here's a bunch of stuff you can get started on:
1. Get and read Brian Germain's book
2. Get and read Brian Burke's book
3. Read through and start working on Bill's checklist (it's on dz.com) - I'd suggest starting up high
4. Find a mentor (who is respected) to review your videos and offer advice
5. Locate a canopy course in your area or organize your own - you need 6 people for the flight-1 course
6. Find a coach near you and go visit them if need be

Swooping is something I personally take very seriously and spend a lot of time on (hence me posting here) and I'm just some shitty weekend-warrior fun jumper. If you want to do this seriously (well, more seriously than shitty weekend warrior status like me) then you need to pull your finger out and spend more time on it than you *seem* to be right now.

For the record, you ought to think about your response to people on this board. Rather than making him seem like a bad guy (which is what you were aiming for I believe) you've come across as very short tempered and agressive. I've been in the position to be on the receiving end of that kind of thing and it's taken all I could muster not to tell people to fuck off but when it comes down to it, very few responses you get are going to be purely empty attacks. There's value in most if you care to look for it.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Now there is I response that I actually took something from. It has nothing to do with my ego. It has to do with your approach.

I wish I was lucky enough to have the mentoring you do. I don't. That is why I have reduced myself to looking for some on DZ.com. I do take what I am doing seriously, and I know I am at a critical stage (200-800 jumps IMHO) where I am extremely suspectable to believing my skills are better than they are. If you read the PM's with guys that did PM me you, would have faith that I grasp this very well. That is why I posted this thread. Not to start shit, that Davelepka did on his own accord. I am reaching out (not to get approval as that asshole stated) but to acctually learn a few things. It is unfortunate that I do not have coaches available, but that is not my fault. I simply want to learn.

That is why I said what I did about him. He doesn't seem to care if anyone wants to learn. He doesn't care why, they are not experienced enough. Athough he will tell you "He cares because of safety." I bet he made a similar progression and mistakes. Although he probably won't admit to it unless I resurrect old post to contradict him.

Look I want advice. I want help. I know I am at a dangerous point, otherwise I wouldn't be asking for assistance.

If you want to be like Davelepka then ignore this thread please. If you want to contribute to a young jumper's learning then please PM me. I WILL listen, but I do have questions of my own. If you choose to ignore because you don't want to get involved in my development....I understand. Really I do.

Just don't be a dick please.

Thanks.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[buff 0]

I began just like you, small Kansas 182 DZ. Old dudes doing 4-way. When me and my buddy decided that swoop was the way to enlightenment without traveling 10,000 miles to rub a fat dudes belly, we were told that if we pulled on our fronts, the nose would fold under and we would die. We are still here and bruised but unbroken thus far.

We got BG's book and read it from jump 100 to around 300. I didn't read the advanced chapters the first couple of reads. Then we traveled to Dallas for Curt's canopy course and then did all of the basic stuff up high. We're talking another 100 never taking anything near pattern altitude.

Lots of time determining altitude loss/recovery from double fronts to 270s. Making notes in the log books until things were consistant and then began taking it down. Doubles and 90's. Then Tommy D came to Kansas last summer and more learning. Travel to Dallas in the fall and hit the gates for the first time under the eye of Curt. He offered to have us come down and give us a course on evaluating each other; what we have been doing all along but the question is, are we correct or is it the blind leading the crazy?

Hang around in here long enough and you will find that you should listen to the dudes who's names begin with D, I, or S. If you learn to read between the lines, thier advice can keep you flying if your mind is open.

A better approach to the elder swooper in this forum is to post your progression (canopy stalls, turns,dives etc for 75 up high on C&Ps; 10 downwinders; 30 H&Ps working on doubles). List canopy type, WL, canopy courses..... You will get a better response out of Lepka and respect that you are not just another guy jerking on risers and praying you don't chow. Your OP just makes you look like the "Can you teach me to swoop" person in that cartoon.

If you take this shit seriously, you are just going to have to travel and get the course work done, do the progrression safely (you SHOULD be known at your DZ as H&P rather than EFS) and learn everything there is to know about your canopy. In a year or two, your DZO will be asking you to give the canopy seminar at safety day.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[davelepka 4]

I was trying to avoid getting into a pissing match with you because it could go on forever, buuut...

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Go read all of Dave's posted to all threads. You will be hard pressed to find anywhere where he is not ripping young jumpers.

This is not correct sir. I caefully consider the source and and nature of questions and comments, and tailor my response as such.

News flash for you - swooping is not for young jumpers. If you consider yourself a young jumper, than swooping is not the game for you. There is no way to go faster closer to the ground in skydiving than swooping, and the only way to do it under canopy whcih has proven to be the most dangerous time in a skydive. If you think that's a place for young jumpers, than you have made another mistake on top of all the others I outlined above.

What to be a big boy? Quit your whining and take my advice for what it is. Again, I'll point out that I didn't create this situation. I didn't post a new thread guessing that some guy in MO was making some bad decisions regarding swooping, nor did I PM you and suggest you post what you did.

All I did was respond to that what YOU wrote. Without you writing what you thought, I would have had nothing to comment on. So you don't like my comments, that's fair, but one of us is right, and for you to completely discount what I said and assume that I'm just trying to fuck with you is extremely short-sighted, and not an attitude that will serve you well in skydiving.

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How about you try to help a brother out

People tried to help you out. People suggested coaching and good reading material, and your response what that coaching was unavailable and that you ordred the book but it 'hadn't shown up yet', despite that fact that you indicated you were already knee-deep in swooping and progressed through 180s.

Again, people tried to help, and YOU posted reasons why that help didn't apply to you. Just becasue it wasn't what you wanted to hear (much like what I posted) doesn't mean it's wrong.

You live in fucking MO. You're less than a day's drive from a half-dozen DZs where you can find a canopy coach. You couldn't be bothered to read the book BEFORE doign straight-ins, 90s, and 180s? I took all of this into account before posting what I did.

Suck it up cupcake. It's a long bumpy road, and if this little ripple in the pavement is going to get you all out of sorts, you're not going to like the 'real' problems that are coming your way.

[frost 1]

yawn... another one.

i think it's time to lock this up and ban the OP for a couple of weeks for repeated personal attacks.

[davelepka 4]

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By the way. The death under a good canopy thing.....ya most of those are experienced canopy piolts with over a thousand jumps. What can you reply to that?

How about you try to help a brother out

OK, bro, here's some help.

The only way you get 'on the books' (fatality statistics, that is) is by dying. You have to do the deed al the way to get your name, rank, and serial number recorded for all of time.

Come up short, and put yourself in a wheelchair for the rest of your life? Nobody will remember that. Have to shit in a bag and have a nurse turn you so you don't get bed sores for the rest of your life? That's not going to get your name in the book either.

See the point? The only statistics we have are for the dead guys. All of the guys who came soooo close, but managed to live, we have no record of that.

Too dramamtic for you? That's fair, here's a real life story that happened to a good friend of mine. Good jumper, 500+ jumps at the time of the incident, not a swooper or tying to be a swooper. The guy di about a 45 onto final to build a little speed, and was just too low. Impacted kind of sideways, and hsi sole injury was a cracked vertibrae in his neck. Of course that's pretty serious, so he was rushed to the hospital where he spent a couple weeks and went though a couple surgeries.

Vertibrae fixed, no other injuries. Lingering pain in his neck persisted for about 2 years. The good job he had been at for almost 10 years was lost. Never jumped again. Burned through his savings in the process. Ultimately he ended up going back to school, getting a new career, meeting a nice girl and getting married.

The point is that this guy made one small mistake, and it turned out to be a knock-out punch to his entire life for about 5 years. He went from being a single guy in his early 30's, great job, lots of money, lots of jumping, lots of girls, the works. The guy had it made. One mistake took it all away and side-lined him for 5 years. No jumps, no career advancement, no income, no nothing.