Vigil 2 activation during swoop landing

[raymod2 1]

On June 14, 2009, during my 8th jump with a newly purchased Vigil 2, the unit activated and deployed my reserve while I was executing a high performance landing over the swoop pond at Mile-Hi Skydiving in Longmont, CO. I was dragged into the pond but I was unhurt.

Equipment: JVX 90 zero-p (2.4 wing loading), PD160R, Skyworks Rigging RDS, Javelin J2, Vigil 2

Technique: right hand 450 degree turn initiated from 1200-1300 feet

Here is the report from Vigil:

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Concerning Vigil #13976

The Vigil is set in Pro mode without altitude correction and in meters.
There is no freefall graph because the main canopy has been deployed quit fast after the exit. This is normal because the jump speed ± 4 to 5 sec after exit to achieve the 35 m/s (78 mph) to detect the freefall and to start the memory of the graph.
The graph N° 1 is linked to a speed increase detected and started at ± 1150 ft and goes very shortly above the trigger value of 35 m/s (78 mph) at ± 450 ft.
This is enough to activate the Vigil at 354 ft.

Conclusion : There is nothing wrong with the Vigil and it activated due to a too high vertical speed before landing.

The report states that the unit fired at 354 feet due to a vertical speed exceeding 78mph. Eyewitnesses reported the reserve deploying about 10 feet off the ground. My own observations were that the main started shuddering just as I was rolling out of the dive and preparing to put my toe in the water. Shortly after that my speed decreased very rapidly and I landed in the pond less than 1/4 way across (the pond is 350 feet long). The reserve freebag landed about 20 feet before the pond.

[AggieDave 6]

Firstly, glad you're ok!

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Conclusion : There is nothing wrong with the Vigil and it activated due to a too high vertical speed before landing.

Secondly, that's kind of a cool statement to hear about your swoop, isn't it?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[frost 1]

Damn, Dan! yeah glad you're OK, buddy!!!

Well, looks like modern AADs are behind the current skill level of today's Pro canopy pilots! Not just the "best of the best", like they claimed a year ago. That brings up a few questions right away.

1. Is Vigil, amped up as the swooper friendly AAD, really a swoop safe device? Is ANY AAD really friendly for us at this point?

2. IF it fired at 354 feet... then why did the reserve come out at 10? I tend to believe the eyewitnesses, since we've seen the videos here before where the AAD fired and reserve came out during a level flight. Is there an explanation for that?

3. Personal questions for you - are you happy with the Vigil's explanation? and what are you going to do now? Chose another AAD? Turn it off? I dont think it's an option to turn it off for hop and pops - you swoop on all jumps. It's either an "ALL or NONE" case scenario, no?

P.S. go buy a lotto ticket man.

[raymod2 1]

It doesn't really add up that the unit fired at 354 feet but the reserve didn't start coming out until 10 feet. I haven't heard a good explanation for that.

I have asked Vigil to take back the AAD and reimburse me for it and for my reserve pack job. I am considering buying an Argus.

[billvon 2,463]

This is an interesting statement:

>The graph N° 1 is linked to a speed increase detected and started at ±
>1150 ft and goes very shortly above the trigger value of 35 m/s (78 mph)
>at ± 450 ft. This is enough to activate the Vigil at 354 ft.

The Vigil normally fires if you are descending too fast beginning at 840 feet. The above statement seems to indicate that the Vigil reached its trigger speed of 35 m/s at 450 feet, and then fired at 354 feet - which at 35 m/s would be 1 second later. That would seem to contradict their stated firing time of 2 milliseconds.

Am I reading their report wrong?

[ianmdrennan 2]

I've been happy with my speed cypres 2.

Does Argus not have a swoop mode, or model?

I believe, as a general rule of thumb, that if you're doing multiple rotations from about 1000 feet - you may want to consider an ADD built for that, or not using an AAD at all - ultimately what it boils down to is: Know Your Gear

This is what killed Adrian Nicholes (sp?) a few years back.

Glad you're ok.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[hackish 8]

Since a reserve generally deploys in about 300 feet the observation that your reserve came out at 10' above the ground seems to be quite understandable. I don't quite understand why you're disappointed in a device that may have in fact activated the way it is published to work.

I am interested to hear about the 96' difference in firing times.

-Michael

[ficus 0]

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Is ANY AAD really friendly for us at this point?

The Argus has a swoop mode, which will inhibit firing of the cutter once deployment has been detected. (As opposed to the Speed Cypres's strategy of bumping up the speed required to induce a fire.)

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

For me there are only two options when you are a swooper.
- Argus
- Cypres speed

I myself use the Argus and I'm very happy with it.
Had a Vigil 2 before but I changed it for swoop reasons

[davelepka 4]

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I have asked Vigil to take back the AAD and reimburse me for it and for my reserve pack job. I am considering buying an Argus.

Why would they do that? The unit worked as designed, and fired within it's design perameters.

It's no secret around here, and has already been mentioned in this post, that multiple rotations starting from more than 1000ft, puts you at risk for an AAD fire with a conventional AAD. A very brief search on this site (and we all know you've been on this site plenty of times) would have shown plenty of information on the subject, and some of the incidents that revealed the problems with swooping with an AAD.

As also stated earlier, Argus and the Speed Cypres have systems in place to avoid firing during a swoop, what system, if any, does the Vigil have in place to prevent such an occurence?

[frost 1]

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Since a reserve generally deploys in about 300 feet the observation that your reserve came out at 10' above the ground seems to be quite understandable.

An AAD fire/reserve deployment during the recovery dive is not same as AAD fire/reserve deployment during freefall.

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you may want to consider an ADD built for that

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Argus and the Speed Cypres have systems in place to avoid firing during a swoop, what system, if any, does the Vigil have in place to prevent such an occurence?

Thats the thing i want to know! what do these devices have to offer to people that use them and who make big turns. How are they specifically built for them?

I use Speed Cypres, but i am not sure it is "specifically designed for" high speed multiple rotation landings... It just raises the firing speed, keeping the rest of the algorithm logic from the regular Cypres (from my understanding of the manual).

I dont know much about other devices, but if Argus switches off after deployment, that may be the more "swoop" oriented approach to this issue.

What does Vigil have in place? What does Pro mode do?

Know your gear - that's key, for sure. Would be great to see a bullet point comparison of these devices "swoop" modes.

[icevideot 0]

I am glad it worked out for you. That is a frightening prospect.

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Since a reserve generally deploys in about 300 feet the observation that your reserve came out at 10' above the ground seems to be quite understandable.

It has always been my understanding that this 300 foot benchmark was to have a fully deployed and flying canopy in 300 feet.

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I don't quite understand why you're disappointed in a device that may have in fact activated the way it is published to work.

If this were the way it happened I would want to know why it took 344' to launch my reserve from the container.

Having witnessed a low reserve pilot chute launch, I doubt this happened at 354 feet without the witnesses noticing.

Once the closing loop is cut, the pc should launch almost instantly and a container popping open and trailing a thick white bridle will get your attention.

I am happy the op was close enough to the ground to not find out what was going to develop shortly
after this.

I find the explaination to mean that it is not suited for any rig I intend to have a swoop worthy canopy in. (even though I doubt I reach 78mph vertical)

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I use Speed Cypres, but i am not sure it is "specifically designed for" high speed multiple rotation landings... It just raises the firing speed, keeping the rest of the algorithm logic from the regular Cypres (from my understanding of the manual).

Jay worked closely with them on the design parameters. He did a bunch of jumps, with their logger, under various canopy sizes (including his 71) at different loadings and different rotations.

While no system is 100% guarenteed, I feel confident that Airtec did their homework on this one.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[txlottowinner 0]

Good to hear your alright.

I picked up an argus last season, works great (has not fired) and is very suited for swooping.
-turns itself off after a canopy is detected, no chance of fire on descent
-has adjustable altitudes (don't use it much, cant think of a case where I need to jack with it, others may have a reason to?)
-waterproof to an extent (proven!! with my chowing ass)
-and cheap maintenance, bought batteries at walmart last repack for 6 bucks, gave them to my rigger and he put them in and good to go!

Not knocking any of these others aad's but all I need it for is if an impact knocks me out and I cant get my handle for myself. If you do hop and pops I guess it's only good if you knock yourself out by hitting the tail!

For the task at hand it just works. No worries its off!

It's all fun and games till the ground gets big!

[frost 1]

I remember he posted here the results of the test jumps. That was good testing by Airtec to detect the firing speeds in the turns. But raising the firing speed seems more like a bandaid, rather than a feature. A modification to the existing algorithm. Let's also not forget that there was some controversy about Airtec ignoring this known and documented issue for sometime and that some may say the death of a respected jumper pushed them to make the Cypres 2 Speed rather quickly.

I am sure there were great minds at work at all of these companies that evaluated the possibilities and came to various conclusions. Cypres decided to raise the firing speeds - a modification that also carries some drawbacks with it, as they describe in the manual. Argus decided to switch it off completely after opening. I am not sure which one is the best solution, to be honest. On one hand, it's good to have a working AAD until you land - in case you cut away at 2K and then fall to 600 and forget to pull the other handle for some wacky reason it would come in handy. On the other hand, not worrying at all about a possible ticking bomb is a good thing too.

Now, Vigil Pro fires at the same speed as a regular Cypres - 35 m/s. that doesnt seem like a "big turn friendly" Swoop mode at all, especially after all the known cases... is there anything else being done by the company to make Vigil AAD more big turn friendly?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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One one hand, it's good to have a working AAD until you land - in case you cut away at 2K and then fall to 600 and forget to pull the other handle for some wacky reason it would come in handy. On the other hand, not worrying at all about a possible ticking bomb is a good thing too.

Which would have saved the camera man in Elsinore who's wings covered his handles (if he'd had a cypres) - the point being that you can still end up in cypres situations after deployment.

My personal preference is raised activation speeds over turning the unit off entirely.

At least there are choices
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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This is what killed Adrian Nicholas a few years back.

This is exactly what I thought when I read the title. Personally, I think it's best to just shut it off when doing the big landings. This might mean reserving those 450s for solos and hop and pops, but it's worth it, IMO. Especially when you're jumping at a higher AGL DZ where you're more likely to exceed your AAD speed limit in a swoop (if your AAD does not have swoop features like Argus or Speed Cypres).

[superstu 0]

I don't fly with an AAD, but I would like to test all AAD's up here in CO to see if I could get them to fire, even the speed cypres. I think it would be interesting.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[LetsGoOutside 0]

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I don't fly with an AAD, but I would like to test all AAD's up here in CO to see if I could get them to fire, even the speed cypres. I think it would be interesting.

Yeah, I didn't either until I needed to start jumping with students (working on instructor ratings).

At Mile-Hi on comp Velo, right? I'll bet you could get them all to go. I know there was some Cypres fire testing that went on independently with far less WL at about 2,000' (~sea level DZ with the Cypres set to fire higher). Article's in Skydiving Magazine and there are some comments on it somewhere in this site.

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My personal preference is raised activation speeds over turning the unit off entirely.

Totally. I'm thinking disorienting G-force related scenarios with smaller canopies where your AAD would get some much needed use after deployment, cutaway, etc, rather than in the initial freefall portion of the skydive.

[davelepka 4]

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If this were the way it happened I would want to know why it took 344' to launch my reserve from the container.

Having witnessed a low reserve pilot chute launch, I doubt this happened at 354 feet without the witnesses noticing.

For starters, the jumper had exceeded 78 mph. so even if we use 78mph as the number that equals 115 feet per second, or three seconds to go from 350 to the ground.

At 78 mph, three seconds is a fair deployment time. Give the PC a second to get to the end of the bridal and get the bag moving, a second to get to line stretch and strip the bag, and the canopy needs a second to inflate.

Keep in mind that a reserve PC at terminal has about 30% more airspeed to work with, so given the lower airspeed, the deployment time is right on track.

Besides, if the thing fired at 354, the AAD is done for the day. What happens after that depends on the rig and the rigger. Any delay to the deployment after the AAD fires has nothing to do with the AAD.

[raymod2 1]

Here is an updated report from AAD and a graph of the jump.

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We received the info through the office in Deland and also the graph. Please find attached the graph n°1 with the activation.

For information, about the graphs:
- The GREEN line is the altitude in meters.
- The RED line is the speed used by Vigil in m/s.
- The YELLOW line is the filtered speed, just to give the average falling speed during the freefall as info.
- The RED dot: detection of the freefall (min. 5/8 sec above activation speed).
- The YELLOW dot: detection end of the freefall (min. 5/8 sec under activation speed).
- The BLUE dot: activation of the Vigil.

The Vigil in Pro mode will activate very fast. This means that if the Vigil detects a speed above 35 m/s or 78 mph during more than 5/8 sec from 1100 ft* (840 + 260) or lower.
Knowing that this speed is determined and based on measurements of pressure values like for all AAD’s but our system has its own calculation method for the speed, based on our patent.
Other AAD’s work differently. The Vigil acts faster than the Cypress.
This has already saved lives mostly when the jump is doing a low cutaway.

There is only 1 graph in the memory, because doing a quick deployment after the exit, the vertical speed will not exceed the trigger value of 35 m/s (78 mph) to start record the jump.
This is completely normal and the Neptune seems not to record the jump either.
We see on the graph that the used speed value (red line) goes above the trigger line very shortly but enough to activate.
So for us there is absolutely no problem with the Vigil.

It seems that your way of swooping is just on the limit to use a Vigil in Pro mode.
You can do hundred jumps staying just under the trigger limit and once just above, like this one. We have no swoop mode by purpose for the moment, but maybe in the future.
We understand that you are not happy but the Vigil worked correctly following its design and the chosen Pro mode, as described in our User’s Manual.
Our office VIGIL USA LLC confirmed me that they have sent the unit back to you by UPS with a new cutter free of charge.

*See manual page 10 & 11

We hope to have informed you and stay at your entire disposal.

According to the graph I reached a peak vertical speed of 40 m/s (89.5 mph) at 120 m (394 feet). It also shows that I exceeded the firing threshold for a little over 2 seconds and the unit took slightly less than 1 second to fire.

[jurgencamps 0]

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INow, Vigil Pro fires at the same speed as a regular Cypres - 35 m/s. that doesnt seem like a "big turn friendly" Swoop mode at all, especially after all the known cases... is there anything else being done by the company to make Vigil AAD more big turn friendly?

Vigil Pro = standard mode, nothing swooper friendly

[berchtoldaj 0]

I can imagine how scary it was for Dan to have this happen. In my opinion, Dan's no slouch swooper. He pushes the limit. He was on the 2007 US National Team. He's NOT mediocre. and in the grand scheme of things, he's not jumping an intermediate canopy. He's not at a "moderate" wingloading. In the big picture of the HP CP world, your NOT the general environment. take care.

It appears the unit operated within its design specifications. Vigil is up front about their speeds. but if your in Dan's shoes carefully consider your gear choices. I'll also add a kudos to Vigl for providing their customer with the data in the graph above, and replacing the cutter at no charge.
Glad your ok Dan, or I'd have to come punch you for getting hurt. Thats my trick.....
Al

************
Watch out for planters.

[davelepka 4]

The upside to the whole thing is finding out you were pushing 90mph at 350ft. That's fast as hell.

[amir1967 0]

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The upside to the whole thing is finding out you were pushing 90mph at 350ft. That's fast as hell.

If I read it correct he was going about 90mph until 150ft (50m) , is it possibale to get out of it Vertical speed in that distance ??

Amir

AM67