comp velocity

[h83 0]

hy...

could anyone tell me some facts about the comp velocity?? the infos on the pd-hp are very rare....

thanks

heimo

[gainer 0]

Not to say anything on the Comp velo but can someone please tell me why, why not wiill this canopy be good, bad as a normal jumping canopy and not just a cometition canopy. Also what are its openings like?

[AggieDave 6]

Its a canopy designed to be heavily loaded. It also comes with 300HMA and full RDS.

Jumping a canopy loaded at 2.5+ with 300HMA and a full RDS as an every day canopy is not my idea of a fun time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[berchtoldaj 0]

Many of the common questions about the differences between the Competition Velocity(VC) and the Velocity(VE) are answered here: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Comp_Velocity_Flight_Characteristics.PDF

************
Watch out for planters.

[polarbear 1]

Anybody out there seeing tail flutter in front riser turns on a competition velocity? Mine flies great but it flutters pretty badly in the turn, even with 4" of slack in the steering lines. None of my regular Velos ever did this.

Just curious if other people see this too.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[ianmdrennan 2]

CJ,

This is not expected, or typical behavior. I have not experienced this on the Comp Velo's I just received, nor on any of the ones that I've jumped.

I would contact PD ASAP - I'm sure they'd be very happy to help you and get to the cause of the issue.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

Well, I've waited to post here until I got a little more time under the production Competition Velocity.

Personally, I love them - so much so that I've ordered my own personal 84 (I have a team 79 and 90 that I use)....so I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is so to speak
First, before I go into detail, realize that these are my IMPRESSIONS - flying a canopy is a rather personal experience so I can't promise you'll feel the same.

Openings
WAY better than a regular velo. Mine are almost always on heading, no shaking, not too much snivel and smooth as silk. I have zero issues taking the 79 and 90 to terminal with full RDS although jumpers considering this may want to take line wear into account.

Flight

Just flying around it really doesn't feel much, if at all, different to a stock velo. This is GREAT for pilots who are familiar with the velo characteristics. You won't feel like you're under a foreign wing.

Front risers and dive

The front riser pressure, to me, seems higher initally than a stock velo BUT it doesnt build as quickly so I am able to keep control of the fronts for as long, or longer, than a stock velo. It dives a little more, but not dramatically (IMO) so.

Rears
Much more powerful on the rears than a stock velo. You'll have to resist the tendency to stay on the rears too long. The wing carries its speed well if you don't overamp on the rears.

Toggles
Same pressure as stock IMO but with wonderful slow flight characteristics. You can really get deep in the toggles and get that extra bit of lift.

Any other comp velo pilots care to share their impressions?

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[polarbear 1]

I only have a few jumps on my 90 and it has been two years since I flew a regular 90, so I'm a little skewed. But...

- I agree on the openings. Super sweet...soft, no seeking or shaking, smooth. Relatively easy to keep on heading. No trouble at terminal either.

- I agree on flight. It feels the same flying it around up high.

- Front risers - I think the riser pressure is lighter all around. I think it dives about the same but it feels like it has a slightly stronger tendency to pull out.

- Rears are nice. Not as powerful as on the JVX, but way better than the regular Velo.

- Toggles - it feels ~ soggy to me, but it does float nicely. I personally don't notice much extra lift on landing, but maybe when I get used to it I will.

Mine does have some tail flutter issues when doing front riser dives. PD has informed me that it shouldn't do that; they are currently testing and evaluating it. I'll post the results when it comes out.

Overall I really like the canopy (other than the tail flutter). It seems to be a nice blend of the things I like about the JVX and the things I like about the regular velocity. I'm eager to get it back and keep jumping it.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[LetsGoOutside 0]

Quote

Mine does have some tail flutter issues when doing front riser dives. PD has informed me that it shouldn't do that; they are currently testing and evaluating it. I'll post the results when it comes out.

Have you let out the brake lines? Most canopies ship with the brake lines a bit on the short side, where a deep front riser turn with your toggle in hand (as it should be) deflects the tail a bit. I usually have to let my brake lines out another 6". You might want to look into longer risers, as well, to keep front riser stroke range separate from toggle stroke range.

[polarbear 1]

Yes, 5 inches. I always lengthen the brake lines on my canopies as much as I can.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Yes, 5 inches. I always lengthen the brake lines on my canopies as much as I can

I was under the impression that PD uses a specific length for the brake lines on the Velo. This is why the loops for attaching your toggles are fignertrapped and sewn down at the factory.

The idea was that the even at full flight, the lines apply some tension to the tail and help to hold the tail in a certain position. If you use a longer line, the tail is not held in the correct position.

This is what I was told after a request for longer lower steering lines during a reline last year. This was for a regular Velo with vectran lines, and may or may not apply to the comp Velo or HMA lines.

[polarbear 1]

Hmmm, I have never heard that. Well, first off, my first jump on the Comp Velo was with stock brake length and it still fluttered, so I don't think it's the problem here.

I have always added as much length on to my brake lines as possible - typically 4-6 inches extra on 22" risers. That includes a Velo 120, a 103, two different 96s, a 90, an 84, a JVX 83, and a JVX 87 (and of course now the comp Velo 90) and covers about 1700 jumps. None of them fluttered, ever, except for the comp Velo.

When I talked to PD, I specifically mentioned the extra brake line I added and they said it shouldn't matter; if anything it should help because you have less chance of deflecting the tail when in front risers.

I've actually always heard people encourage adding brake line length because it reduces the amount of tail deflection you get when pulling on front risers. In fact there are several places on th PD website where they say this. The quote below is from the 'Velocity Flight Characteristics' they have posted on the website.

"Second, make sure there is sufficient slack in the control system. The control system should
appear quite bowed at full glide, due to the drag of the lines. Having the control lines tied too
short deflects the tail, which makes the initial toggle turn rate feel snappier, but reduces canopy
speed at full glide, reduces the speed and angle of the dive, and causes buffeting".

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[champu 1]

Here is a shot of a VE-090 with HMA lines, 22 inch risers, stock brake settings, and my hands in the front dive loops during a gradual left harness turn.

There's quite a bit of bow in the steering lines and virtually no tail deflection.

[davelepka 4]

I'm down with the concept of short brake lines, and their effect on flight. What I was talking about was making the lines too long.

Even when the lines are bowed, they are exerting force on the tail, and influencing it's position. Having the lines too long would allow the tail to sit too high if a certain type of canopy was so inclined to react that way.

If you think about it, as speed increases, and the pressure differential between the top and bottom skins becomes greater, the tendency for a 'loose' tail to rise should increase. Once the tail reaches it's higest point, it would 'stall' and drop back to it's original position, only to begin to rise again. If this happens fast enough, now it's flapping.

This is first hand info I recieved from John LeBlanc in a series of very informative e-mails after I requested extra long lower steering lines on my Velo. Again, this was in refernce to a standard Velo with vectran lines, and was at least a year or two ago.

Please be sure to post whatever PD finds out is the trouble with your canopy, I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in what they determine the problem to be, and their solution.

[hparrish 0]

I agree with Dave on both of his posts.

Also, I think that most canopies come with shortened brake lines to keep the lower experienced canopy pilots safe.

A Competition wing (Velo II or JVX), I wouldnt think they would do this. I know for a fact with the JVX, the Lines are set for maximum performance and only minor control line changes if any are necessary...........IE, extending 5" would not be optimal for performance.

I'd think a Comp Velo II would be very much the same. So perhaps adding the extra slack is atually contributing to your tail flutter, and changing the enitre angle of attack on the canopy in a dive.

[frost 1]

Comp velo comes with an extra 3 inches of steering line. Did you add 5 more on top of that, CJ? Do you have a video by any chance?

There's also Shane's brand new JVX with a bad tail flutter a while back, i dont know if Icarus NZ ever identified what the issue was... Point being, could it be just a manufacturing defect?

[polarbear 1]

Yeah, I'm at 4.5" over stock, which is already 3" over a regular velo.

Basically I add enough brake line until I have to pull my toggles all the way down and lock my elbows before the thing will collapse. I do that with every canopy. It usually winds up being 3-6", depending on the size and model.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[LetsGoOutside 0]

Quote

typically 4-6 inches extra on 22" risers.

That sounds right. If you're still getting buffeting then, yeah, something's probably up with that particular canopy.

[polarbear 1]

I talked to Brian Germain about brake line length. This was his reply

"It is true that there can be some tail bending as a result of rear riser input.
However, in order for the brake lines to act like "e" lines, you would need to remove all of the slack from the brakes, as well as grabbing the rears below the guide rings. Even then, the center of the parachute between the brakes would still lift up considerably.


I do know that several of the top competators have lengthened their brakes quite a bit, some as much as 9 inches, but this is for a different reason. Due to the new style of distance swooping, the competators are opening their upper chest strap (regular location), and leaning way out in front immediately following the rear riser level off. Longer brakes allow them to do this without accidentally loading the tail. Regardless of the reason, there is presidence to suggest that it is perfectly safe to make the brake lines longer from a stability standpoint.


There is another angle to consider. Competition swoopers are rarely deep in the corner. They do not often need to dig out, and the reduced lift from any upward tail movement in high G rear riser recovery is not a big problem for them, and neither is the delayed response of super-long brake lines. Therefore, for the low-hooking general public, I continue to hold the opinion that remaining with the factories' recommendations is a good idea, modifying only to accomodate for variance in riser length and personal preference."

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[polarbear 1]

Heard back from PD today. They said that they were unable to reproduce the buffeting that I had, but that they found other undesirable characteristics of the canopy so they are going to build me a new one.

We talked a bit about brake line length. The opinion I got today was that there is such thing as too much slack, that some brake line tension is necessary, and that the extra slack I had in the lines may be contributing to the buffeting I have seen. I mentioned that I have added slack on every canopy I have ever had and never seen an adverse effect (including a regular Velo 90, which should be pretty close to the comp model). Basically they said that these canopies can be very sensitve to even small changes; it just depends on the specifcs of the situation and the canopy.

I'll be interested to get the new one. I'm going to try flying it with and without extra slack and see what differences I see.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[superstu 0]

hey CJ glad to hear PD is getting you a new canopy. i did some jumps on different rev's of the current comp velo up here at mile-hi and never got tail flutter and that was on the 71, 90, and 96's that i jumped up here at differing wingloadings ranging from 2.1-3.3. i never added or took away slack in the brake line from these canopies cause i didn't find it necessary but i might fly different than other people and you might like a different feel for the canopy than i.

hopefully you'll get your new canopy soon

take it easy bro...stu

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[polarbear 1]

Got my replacement Comp Velo 90 last week and made 8 jumps on it this weekend. First few jumps was with stock brakes, last few was with 3" added in. It never fluttered once.

It's a nice canopy. It does seem divier than I remember my old regular 90.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[ianmdrennan 2]

Glad you're happy with it
Are you going to be joining us at Nationals with it?

Performance Designs Factory Team

[frost 1]

Quote

It's a nice canopy. It does seem divier than I remember my old regular 90.

CJ, interested to hear your opinion on this:

1. From your prior JVX experience, how did the rears seem on the Comp Velo? I heard they are much better compared to the original velocity ("better" being a relative term and more from a point of view of someone who likes the VX/JVX style of rear riser input), but still not as close.

2. I was curious to hear an opinion of a very experienced velo pilot, who, after putting some jumps on the comp velo, did not see a MAJOR improvement/difference between that and an HMA lined/RDS equipped velo. Comp velo with a PC attached flew same as or very similar to a regular velo with PC removed, is what he thought.

What did you think? Of course, 8 jumps is not nearly enough to figure out a canopy, but "first impression" is what i am looking for here.

[hparrish 0]

hmmm sounds like someone is trying to decide on something.