What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers?

[Peej 0]

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Do you want to tell me that you start you right 90 or left 270 from the same point(same altitude)?

Come on dude, are you just being difficult now? Surely it's obvious that the turns wouldn't be initiated from the same height? But a pattern is a pattern is a pattern, i fly the same right/ left hand box pattern regarless, but depending on what canopy i'm jumping or turn i'm doing, i just up my initiation altitudes.

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[breadhead 0]

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Do you want to tell me that you start you right 90 or left 270 from the same point(same altitude)?

It all depends what your definition of pattern is:
(A) Pattern = thin line.
(B) Pattern = wide corridor.

Both definitions are very useful.
- Definition (A) is useful for accuracy, for swooping, etc. It defines the pattern based on exact altitudes and precise checkpoints along the way. This is the competitor's definition of a pattern.
- Definition (B) is useful for traffic-management. It defines the pattern based on approach directions, no-fly zones, etc. This is the DZO's definition of a pattern.

I believe that in this thread we need to use definition . Definition (A) is useless for the topic being discussed.

A student may do his last 90° left turn at 1000ft.
A more experienced jumper may do his last 90° left turn at 300ft.
And somebody else may do a right 270° around 700ft.

From the point-of-view of traffic management, all three of them are following the same pattern.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I believe that in this thread we need to use definition . Definition [A] is useless for the topic being discussed.

May be.

What is the reason to build up confusion? If someone says that he is landing with left pattern I expect counter-clockwise rotation only for landing for landing.

From his/her position and altitude and the wind or landing direction I might predict his/her landing.

If you start call left as right.....

[Swooopa-x 0]

See (and Read) Article you yourself attached:
"There is also a procedure known as an "orbit", where an aircraft flies a 360° loop either clockwise or anticlockwise."
A maneuvre often performed whithin the pattern.

**This makes it obvious that the term "pattern" is used to describe the general direction of the traffic and would not exclude a SEEMINGLY 'opposite' turn maneuvre.

People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

[rehmwa 2]

"What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers?"

It better mean the same as it does to non-swoopers. Or there will be more confusion.

A right hand pattern with a left 270 hook onto final - is still a right hand "traffic pattern"

The "corridor" statement was the clearest statement.

If someone thinks it's safer to do a left hand pattern into right hand traffic in order to be facing their buddies on the base leg prior to their big hook.....(even though they would assume their buddies are only making 90's then) is looking to kill someone with their unpredictability.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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left pattern I expect counter-clockwise rotation only for landing for landing.

By your definition, taking a CrW canopy and spiralling and toggle whipping down into traffic, then making a left turn before flaring is considered a "left hand pattern"

left hand hook left hand "pattern"

"pattern" has a very specific meaning in skydiving. Pattern includes "downwind leg, base leg, final".

Pissing around unpredictably and then making a left turn to the finish is not a "left hand pattern" - it's an unpredictable flight plan.

Doing a well staged and controlled 'right hand pattern' and then finishing it with a left 270 and telling everyone you plan a left hand pattern is a false statement.

Protest all you want. But if you insist, you will be confusing all the other jumpers.

But - since it's not obvious to everyone, then this is a very good thread to get that into the open.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[78RATS 0]

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It better mean the same as it does to non-swoopers.

I agree, but from this thread you can tell there is a difference of opinion.

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If someone thinks it's safer to do a left hand pattern into right hand traffic in order to be facing their buddies on the base leg prior to their big hook.....(even though they would assume their buddies are only making 90's then) is looking to kill someone with their unpredictability.

I agree. and i would add that the buddies doing the right 90's might consider the person whippin a blind 270 left and flying directly at them on the crosswind leg to be the unpredictable one.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[ianmdrennan 2]

As I and pilots far more qualified than I teach (except for 180's which I teach a modified pattern).

Note: The drawings are crap I threw them together in paint in a few minutes so the angles aren't always proportionate or pretty. Also I think it nicely shows how 180's don't really fit into a good pattern compared to the other turns (different discussion)

Edited to add and fix a few things

Performance Designs Factory Team

[78RATS 0]

I totally understand what you are illustrating.

However, if your not at a swoop comp and your just landing with all the others on the load, isn't there a problem with the "pattern 90" and the "pattern 270"? Don't they fly directly towards one another at some point?

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[ianmdrennan 2]

I believe the reality is that unless you are doing 90 degrees or less, you will, at somepoint, be potentially flying directly towards someone else by the nature of the turn. Even 180's require the pilot to potentially fly right towards someone else who is on their final.

The only way to decrease the likelyhood of colliding, imo, is the following:

1) Seperate the landings by time.
2) Spend your entire canopy descent preparing item 1.
3) Account for all canopies on the load or your pass.
4) Do a canopy check on downwind, base and before turning, especially in the direction of the turn and below.

Other than that there's not much that can be done. Even on dedicated hop n pops with everyone doing turns ranging from 90 - 1080 these days the above have to be strictly followed. Unless each jumper has their own pass (not going to happen) there will be intersecting patterns. The only way to reduce the risk effectively is by adequate seperating in time and that requires discipline from ALL pilots on the load.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[BrianSGermain 1]

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Seems like a simple question but I witnessed a significant disagreement between two experienced swoopers following a near miss on final. Both agreed it was supposed to be a "right hand pattern".


Landing direction: South

Swooper one: flew a north leg and did a right hand 180.

Swooper two: flew a north leg, a (right handed) east leg, followed by a left handed 270.


Swooper two argued that he flew a right hand pattern followed by a landing manuver. Is he correct?

Of course. Making "Right Traffic" is defined by right turns in the pattern. Turning to final with a 270 left or a 90 right is the same thing, as the final heading is the same.

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[selwynj 0]

I like this explanation best with the illustrations. You suck at drawing circles though.
On a different note on the 450 : if you initiate right do you keep going right to until you have completed the 450? I see some guys doing a left 90 and then 360 the other way. I apologize for taking this off topic.

“It takes ten years to get ten years’ experience” Eric "tonto" Stephenson D515 PASA

[CanuckInUSA 0]

450s are all done in the same direction.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[breadhead 0]

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If someone says that he is landing with left pattern I expect counter-clockwise rotation only for landing

By that rational, it would be impossible for anyone doing a 270° to fly a left pattern. Either they would do right turns in the beginning of the pattern, followed by a left turn at the end. Or vice versa.