Swoopers vs. Non-Swoopers in the Pattern

[kkeenan 13]

It is apparent that the incidence of swooper vs. non-swooper interferrence in landing patterns is on the rise.

It seems that the main problem is at boogies. Many DZs have systems that all are familiar with, and that work fine. But, when people come from a lot of DZs and jump together at a boogie without well-known and understood rules, then there are conflicting ideas.

Most non-swoopers have no problem with swoopers busting their asses in private. It's just the idea of being involved in a swoop-related accident when you're not doing a swoop that bothers them.

It would be great if some of the respected members of the Swooping Comunity could help devise solutions before any regulatory folks get involved.

Kevin Keenan

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[dharma1976 0]

some have...

look at the landing area at the Farm in Georgia to prove that

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[yardhippie 0]

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some have...

look at the landing area at the Farm in Georgia to prove that

Dave

yea, but I dont thing they grew those trees just to make a separate landing area!

But back to the topic at hand:

I just sent an email a a DZO about this very thing. Not necessarily boogie related though.

Education is a great first step. When you show up at a new place, educate yourself on the landing pattern, swoop areas (if any), student areas (if any), # of high performance pilots on your load (s). Not to mention many other things that are great to know.

I used "educate yourself", because safety always begins with the individual. Not every DZ will give you a briefing the first time you show up. You might have to ask for one. If one is incapable of seeking out the knowledge they need to be safe at a new DZ, they are a potential statistic.

There should be rules in place. They should apply to ALL, regarless of student/experienced/instructor/skygod status. You break the rules, you get punished. Period. End of discussion. Im not suggesting that this is related to the recent incidents, just what I have seen at some places over the years. Random, maybe even freak, accidents can and will happen, BUT maybe with more structured lading zones and patterns, followed by consequences for infractions will help us all reduce potential for those accidents.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[diablopilot 2]

Swooping is never a right.


One must land safely first, and if that means not pulling the "big dick" manuver you intended because of trafic, one must do just that.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[dharma1976 0]

yes and thank you for calling me on it when you saw me make a mistake JP...it made me more aware of my space...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[AggieDave 6]

Read this, its from my post in the S&T forum. Its not simply a "you damned swoopers are killing people." Its a serious education problem and safety issue for non-swoopers. They want to simply blame swooping, but at the end of the day its the non-swoopers that are causing problems as well. This is further explained with the following:

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Having traveled around quite a bit I've found that its not the hardcore swoopers that are causing many of the problems and some times its not the wanna-be swoopers either.

So often I've been under canopy sitting in deep brakes watching the carnage as plane loads of regular canopy flying fun jumpers are all over the place with no pattern whats so ever. Or mulitpul patterns. Then there's people spiralling in the pattern trying to "beat another canopy" or "get out of the way" of another canopy/pilot. While I sit and float above them on my highly loaded canopy waiting for just a break in the carnage so I can simply enter A pattern, since there isn't THE pattern available. Then do a simple straight in approach.

There's a reason why the large majority of my fun jumps have become hop-n-pops from 4k or clear and pulls from 13k. Its not due to the swoopers, its due to everyone else's lack of patterns. I've tried education and have been told to "fuck off" I've tried setting a good example and I've been told to "fuck off."

There's been more then one boogie that I quit jumping during the boogie due to the really bad canopy traffic from all of the 100-500 jump jumpers. There's been more then one DZ I've quit jumping at while visiting due to the complete lack of patterns and severe safety issues under canopy.

Now, I'm not saying that some of the swoopers aren't causing problems, just that the swoopers have been made out as the bad guys when the problem stems from "deeper waters" in the general jump population. It compounds when a swooper can't check their ego and HAS to swoop on every jump and tries to swoop in those pattern conditions. Was it the swooper's fault. Sure, was it everyone else's fault for all the other stuff going on instead of a pattern? Sure. Will simply seperating the swoopers "fix" the problem? In the short term it might, but in the long term, there are bigger problems.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dharma1976 0]

nicely put....

We can all do our part and talk up accuracy and patterns to the up coming jumpers...

they often look up to us as experienced jumpers...

so lets use that when they are fresh to teach them patterns and how to be safe with it...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[hparrish 0]

I agree with Diablo.................Swooping is not a right and the Swooper needs to make the call on when it's safe to make a high performance landing and when to bail. The lower slower canopy always has the right of way. Always. Sometimes you just have to land in a boring fashion.

There have been many times when I have decided to bail on my swoop. Congested landing area's, a spiraling idiot, other swoopers cutting me off, etc....

That being said...........I'll always approach someone who is wrong and politely point out what they did, explaing to them how wing loadings work and ask politely that they not interfere with the more experienced canopy pilots. I'll also ask the DZO (If I'm visiting) if they mind letting me exit first with a crosswind jumprun, since my wingloading is 2.1:1. I usually am accomodated.

But hey sometimes it doesn't work out so I don't get to Swoop that day. And I usually don't jump at DZ's that won't accomodate what I want to do. So I do have choices.

[dharma1976 0]

swoop abortion saves lives

Period

the end

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[jedeisurf 0]

FJC low man has the right away.. I swoop myself but that is the rule I learned in FJC.
David

[AggieDave 6]

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FJC low man has the right away..

You also learned about flying a pattern in the FJC, right? There's techically right and dead right, you can be both. I don't care if I have to abort a swoop or hang in brakes all the way to putting my feet on the ground, but if it was due to someone spiralling in the pattern or not flying a pattern or doing other stupid actions (like large S-turns on base or final), I'll mention it to them gently and tactfully.

The problem DZs I've been at have bad examples from the up jumpers and instructors. Hell, one of the DZs had the S&TA hook in HARD from a botched swoop. Every single one of his "swoops" I saw had him spiralling through traffic, hooking low and cutting off other jumpers. He "walked" away with bruises, but guess what? The rest of the DZ can't fly a pattern either. Atleast while I've watched. Its bad enough that I don't like jumping there simply due to the really bad canopy traffic.

It take cooperation, even when there is a seperate landing area for swoopers, since if jumpers aren't working to enter their holding area to enter their pattern with the correct horizontal and vertical seperation between jumpers, then any other solution is simply a band-aid fix and other issues can and will arise.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jedeisurf 0]

As I learned the low mam has the right away you have to take into acount the people that don't do it as we were taught sorry but I may be taking the recent eloy things in account.
David

[AggieDave 6]

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As I learned the low mam has the right away you have to take into acount the people that don't do it as we were taught sorry but I may be taking the recent eloy things in account.

You didn't even read what I wrote did you?

I didn't disagree that low man has the right away, just that being the low man or trying to become the low man does not give you a free reign to have your head up your ass.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jedeisurf 0]

Yes I read what you had to say but you have to consider the dumbasses out there that don't know a thing about a pattern or what it is. I come from a single 182 dz but jump in Eloy now, God anyone can jump now. It's not just Eloy but the total lack of training anymore everywhere.
David

[AggieDave 6]

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It's not just Eloy but the total lack of training anymore everywhere.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

That should be the focus of our efforts here. "Fixing" things by seperating the swoopers from everyone, although would be good, it won't fix everything. Its only a "band-aid" fix on a much deeper problem.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hparrish 0]

Yeah I see your point. i definately point things out at my DZ, but then again I have the respect of up jumpers at my DZ.

I'm bold enough to mention stuff at a DZ where I'm visiting, when I know I'm right. If I get the FU response then I simply do what you do. Eliminate that DZ from my Favorites.

It's a shame that some people or DZ's can't or won't take sound advise. I guess that's all that can be done is to advise where you can, and avoid the places that push back.

I agree Aggie..........It's frustrating. But you can only do so much for folks that won't listen. Then you just have to look out for yourself.

It's a Catch 22, but sometimes only an accident or fatality makes people learn.

[AggieDave 6]

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Then you just have to look out for yourself.

There's a reason why a large majority of my last 500 "fun" jumps have been altitude clear and pulls. I want to swoop, I enjoy swooping, but I don't enjoy dealing with other jumpers who are visiting and have no concept of landing patterns. Atleast our home-grown jumpers do a really good job, but then again, we've pounded it in their heads from their first tandem on.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hparrish 0]

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Then you just have to look out for yourself.

There's a reason why a large majority of my last 500 "fun" jumps have been altitude clear and pulls. I want to swoop, I enjoy swooping, but I don't enjoy dealing with other jumpers who are visiting and have no concept of landing patterns. Atleast our home-grown jumpers do a really good job, but then again, we've pounded it in their heads from their first tandem on.

Ahhhh Now that's a different story. if someone is visiting my DZ and ignoring what is being asked.......Then we show them the Door, and not to the plane, if you know what I mean.

Tell me to FU Off if you feel so inclined when I'm visiting your DZ. But forget about it if they are visiting mine and doing BS stuff.

I have no tolerence for that BS, and neither should you.

[yjumpinoz 0]

I really don't think of the "large S-turns" as stupid. I think that if a newer jumper does not have the pattern flown correctly, they may need to s-turn to lose the altitude. Thats not stupid. I don't think that them being low and inexperienced gives anyone the right to use them as a pylon course to swoop through. I do agree that a consistent pattern makes it a lot easier to predict. There is a time and a place to swoop. Sometimes it's neither the time nor the place.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I think that if a newer jumper does not have the pattern flown correctly, they may need to s-turn to lose the altitude. Thats not stupid.

Personally I believe that they are doing themselves a disservice by doing so, UNLESS there is an obstacle ahead and they must get down faster. Otherwise they'd be better off flying straight as they originally planned and then seeing where they land vs where they wanted to land. Adjusting their pattern on the next jump accordingly.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bluheelrtx 0]

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I really don't think of the "large S-turns" as stupid. I think that if a newer jumper does not have the pattern flown correctly, they may need to s-turn to lose the altitude. Thats not stupid. I don't think that them being low and inexperienced gives anyone the right to use them as a pylon course to swoop through. I do agree that a consistent pattern makes it a lot easier to predict. There is a time and a place to swoop. Sometimes it's neither the time nor the place.

You don't have to be a swooper to find this behavior dangerous and annoying at 4-500 feet in the middle of the landing pattern. Even after aborting a swoop, I have had to fly hundreds of feet away from these people (while dealing with all the other traffic that stacks up behind them), just because I couldn't figure out where the hell they were going. Unless you think you're going to hit something if you go long, don't S-turn in the pattern on final.

The main landing area at my home DZ is long and skinny, with trees on one side and the runway on the other. When people start S-turning across the landing pattern, it screws everyone (sometimes even the plane), not just the swoopers.

I do remember what it was like to need those S-turns to make the landing area. I also remember avoiding the main landing area like the plague until I was more comfortable with my accuracy.

--
Jason
--
Some people never go crazy. What truly boring lives they must lead.

[frost 1]

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if someone is visiting my DZ and ignoring what is being asked.......Then we show them the Door, and not to the plane, if you know what I mean....

But forget about it if they are visiting mine and doing BS stuff. I have no tolerence for that BS, and neither should you.

How would you do that, exactly?

Also, are these methods applicable to visiting jumpers only or to locals as well? If the latter, have you been successful in getting rid of all the bad apples yet?

[yjumpinoz 0]

I agree that some drop zones layouts would discourage s-turns. I also did not mean that it is ok to set up real high and do wide sweeping turns. But IMO it is fine to kill some altitude with brakes and or slight s-turns after checking your traffic. If someone needs to swoop and they have traffic, then don't swoop or they can land out. Obviously people are not using common sense or they wouldn't be dead.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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IMO it is fine to kill some altitude with brakes and or slight s-turns after checking your traffic. If someone needs to swoop and they have traffic, then don't swoop or they can land out. Obviously people are not using common sense or they wouldn't be dead.

Are some swoopers killing themselves because of poor judgment under canopy? Yes they are. Are some non-swoopers killing themselves because of poor judgment under canopy? Yes they are. What’s the common denominator here? Some skydivers are using poor judgment under canopy and anyone of us is at risk. None of us are special. In case you haven’t noticed, skydiving is not a safe sport and yes people do die because of this.

If a canopy pilot has messed up their approach and is at risk of running into some sort of object at the end of the landing zone, then yes by all means do what you need to do to avoid that object by using a braked approach, an S-Turn and/or a flat turn. Chances are that the person behind them hasn’t messed up their approach (of course there are no guarantees here). But if someone is using braked approach and/or S-Turns on short final because they messed up their approach and/or misjudged their canopies penetration into the wind only because they want to hit the peas and/or shorten their walk back to the packing area. Well then don’t do it as these people are just creating an unnecessary hazard to themselves and their fellow canopy pilots. Land long, analyze what you did wrong and try not to repeat the same mistake next time.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[hparrish 0]

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if someone is visiting my DZ and ignoring what is being asked.......Then we show them the Door, and not to the plane, if you know what I mean....

But forget about it if they are visiting mine and doing BS stuff. I have no tolerence for that BS, and neither should you.

How would you do that, exactly?

Also, are these methods applicable to visiting jumpers only or to locals as well? If the latter, have you been successful in getting rid of all the bad apples yet?

I was just responding to Aggies Multiple levels of dissatisfaction. We have very few examples of poor landing patterns at my DZ. When they do arrise a simple conversation is all that is needed to remedy a situation. I just make sure I never yell at anyone and explaing things in a manner that they understand.

If unfortunately there is someone who says F Off, and continues doing dangerous things that affect others, then we take action. The Swoopers at my DZ have a good relationship with the DZO's so if we let them know there is an issue and the person is telling us to F Off, they are usually asked to leave by the DZO. We are pretty rational at our DZ.

We also clearly communicate what the landing pattern should be. Allot of the Swoopers will land down wind so we will announce to the rest of the load to ignor us and land with the wind sock. It's usually never a conflict since we usually land first. But what works at my DZ doesn't necessarily work elsewhere.