Full brake and Full flight hook turn characteristics? anyone

[superstu 0]

by the way nick, you're assuming that if you start from braked flight you WILL get to a higher airspeed, but nothing actually says you'll get to that point. if you start your turn too early then really you haven't gained any more speed, or maybe you've even started your turn from a slower speed which might be considered counter productive. you just never know starting in brakes.

starting in full-flight however, you know you'll be starting from a high speed, maybe not the highest, but still high.

more food for thought...

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[davelepka 4]

Here's a thought as to why this issue might be retarded (for the most part).

Building speed is the goal here, and the only thing harder than building speed is maintaining it. The idea then, is to hit your high speed as close to the gates as possible (or even past them).

This makes the last part of the turn the more important part of the turn. If you were to build alot of speed early in the turn, you leave yourself open to loosing that speed during the remainder of the dive.

The idea is more to use the first part of the turn to steadily build speed right up to the area of the gates, hopefully ending up at or near the highest speed your canopy can attain.

You'll do this by spending the entire turn out from under your wing, with the degree of 'outness' steadily increasing throughout the turn up to maximum 'outness' as you roll onto your final heading.

My point here is that for your speed as you start the turn to have an effect on how fast you're going at the end of the turn, you would have to scribe the perfect arc around your canopy, with the perfect rate of increasing speed in order to have any momentum from the start of the turn make it down to the bottom of the turn, and have any appreciable effect on your speed. Any sort of correction, either speeding up or slowing down of your turn during your turn will cancel out any advatage a braked approach or a full flight approach will offer.

There are, of course, some jumpers who may be able to throw the perfect turn, and have whatever advatage is available make it all the way down to the gates, but like I said, anything short of a perfect turn will cancel that right out.

For the sake of discussion, this topic might have some merit, but like alot of things on DZ.com, the finite details at the far end of the spectrum seem to take center stage, when the majority of jumpers need to be focused on the basics.

[shadowswoop97 0]

what Dave said is very true, I guess I know I generate more power speed, I can feel the difference through the gate. If we are calling my topic of discussion retarded, Thanks for the info , but no need for criticism in a conversation people are trying to learn from. In a full flight appoach, you are snapping yourself into a dive and allowing the canopies recovery arc to produce, and create your speed which you transition the speed through the gate any into the course. In a full brakeed approach you are allowing yourself f-more time, and more altitude. If properly exicuted the speed is being built prior to ever actually putting yourself in the dive, therefor instead of the recovery arc building your speed, your recovery arc is using all your speed to generate more power through the gates and into the course. In full flight you may reach your max speed prior to ever getting to the gate and delivering the power. In a full braked approach you are harnesing and building your power then transfering that energy through the recovery arc intio the course, in other words you are reching your max speed while plaining out not before, which in turn creates more speed power and lift through the gates. I think we are leaving out a huge factor. The amount of rotation that you are doing with these techniques. This is effective and works well with 270's but it really starts coming into play with the bigger rotations the 450 and so on, Boy I wish Jay could chime in on this one. guess everyone has their own technique, I will stick with what I've learned,

[polarbear 1]

Well, I don't think it's retarded, I think it's pretty interesting. I just find myself wishing we could talk face to face about it.

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In a full flight appoach, you are snapping yourself into a dive and allowing the canopies recovery arc to produce, and create your speed which you transition the speed through the gate any into the course. In a full braked approach you are allowing yourself f-more time, and more altitude

I don't think that's necessarily true. What you are describing sounds to me more like the difference between a fast-rate turn and a slow-rate turn, not a turn started from brakes or full flight. I do my turns from full flight and still do long ones (I don't whip over real fast hook turns)...I'm typically doing 7 or 8 seconds for a 630. I rely on the turn to generate the speed, not the recovery arc.

I guess, to me, the thing I am looking for is I want my front risers pulling out of my hands right as I'm coming around on heading at the end of my turn. On my canopy, I can hold my risers down for about 8 seconds if I start a turn from full flight. If I do it out of brakes, I can hold 'em down for about 10 seconds. I find that 10 seconds is too slow for a 630 - the turn is too slow to get a good dive going. 8 seconds works well for me...I can do the turn at a good rate, and my risers are just pulling out of my hands as I finish the turn.

I admit, the idea that you can hit maximum speed before the gates and then slow down before you start the swoop is an interesting concept. I've always operated on the idea that it doesn't matter when on the turn you max out the canopy; it just matters that you max it out and then hold it until you're through the gates.

If I get a chance I might play around with this some this weekend. I stopped doing braked approaches back when I was still doing 270s. Maybe I'll like them better when I do bigger turns.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[Vertifly 0]

something about this thread is stupid. who would want to swoop anyway. full brakes or not...friggin retarded.

imho, full flight is better to gather an understanding of your canopies consistent movement - hence making it easier to predict the coming action of your wing upon pulling down a riser. just the way i like it anyway. full break would leave me questioning what is about to happen unless i am super-duper current. sub-stall speed to full on front riser turn is a much wider margin to deal with than full speed to front riser.

but this is still retahded.

[shadowswoop97 0]

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something about this thread is stupid. who would want to swoop anyway. full brakes or not...friggin retarded.

FIRST OFF IF YOU DONT LIKE TO SWOOP THEN WHY ARE YOU IN A LEARNING FORUM FOR SWOOPING,

imho, full flight is better to gather an understanding of your canopies consistent movement - hence making it easier to predict the coming action of your wing upon pulling down a riser. just the way i like it anyway. full break would leave me questioning what is about to happen unless i am super-duper current. sub-stall speed to full on front riser turn is a much wider margin to deal with than full speed to front riser.
THIS JUST MEANS YOU ARE
1. NOT WILLING TO PUT EFFORT FORWARD INTO TRYING SOMETIHING HARDER, OR DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU ARE USED TO.
2. YOU JUST WANT TO BAG ON PEOPLE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ANBOUT SOMETHING YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT

NOTHING BEING DISCUSED HERE IS RETARDED EXCEPT YOUR ATTITUDE

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[ntacfreefly 0]

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NOTHING BEING DISCUSED HERE IS RETARDED EXCEPT YOUR ATTITUDE

That's simply not true.

Stu is retarded

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[shadowswoop97 0]

Here is something my friend Ian gad written about his approach.

Blues,
Ian

Well, as with all things in swooping, each method brings about it's own set of challenges and pros/cons. Instead of me saying what's right or wrong, I prefer to try and get people to work with what works best for them. I find that helping them break down their turn into various steps (trying to maximize the energy in each step) is far more successful that telling them do it X way

That said, basically what we should be trying to do (however we accomplish it) is make our canopy dive as steeply as possible, all while keeping the rotation as slow as possible. It's very easy to rotate too quickly and not spend enough time generating airspeed, but also to rotate too slowly and never really get diving enough. It's a bit of a fine line hehehe.

The braked approach technique brings the following pros (IMO):
1) We're able to slow everything down. Descent rate, forward speed, etc as we approach our initiation point. This allows the pilot to be relaxed and more accurate IMO.
2) Theoretically, if we have enough altitude we're able to enter the turn with more forward speed than full flight. For example (and these numbers are bogus but for illustration): If a canopy in a braked config has a forward speed of 15mph, in full flight has 30 mph, and in deep front riser flight has 35mph then, in theory and if done correctly, we can enter the turn with 35 mph forward speed and build on that. (see cons for the downside hehe)
3) Altitude accuracy is a little easier as we can 'trim' our recovery arc during the turn and with the speed of the fronts being released at the end of the turn (too fast will kill speed though)
4) Oversteer is rarely a problem because of the nature of the double front approach.
5) It's easier to hold down the fronts further (and longer) because of better leverage. It's important to turn by moving your torso side to side as opposed to lifting a riser to initiate the turn as you cannot 'get it back down' if you need to. Additionally your torso has more strength and will allow you to keep your hands in the same place in relation to your shoulders but stagger them in relation to the canopy by shifting side to side (it's a mouthful but does that make sense?).

Cons:
1) 99% of the pilots out there using this method start turning WAY too soon after releasing the brakes.
2) It must be started higher (not a con IMO but worth noting that it'll change your setup).
3) The harness becomes unloaded (depending on how you do your double fronts). If you stay on them until the end you lose a lot of harness control until they're unloaded. There are ways around this though (twisting techniques).

For my bigger rotations (450's) I start loading the harness after about 90 degrees (off topic but worth noting that different rotations have different techniques).

Now, to answer your question about my ideal turn. I start with giving myself a good length base leg. If you hug the gates too much you dont have enough time to regain the speed lost from the braked approach before having to turn. Once I'm approximately 5-6 seconds away from my turn point I ease up on the brakes and take advantage of the canopy diving to pull my fronts down to my shoulders. I try and ride this configuration for 4-5 secs min. I then start to stagger my torso slightly, leaning as much as I can in the harness. The first part of my turn is the slowest. Then gradually and SMOOTHLY I start to accelerate my turn. The acceleration curve being the minimum amount of increased speed required to keep the canopy in the steepest dive. Once on heading I release my risers, slowly, at the speed I will need to adjust the recovery arc through the gates.

I guess in a nutshell that's about it (there are a lot of details missing though, but they're tweaks). It's important, no matter what turn you do, not to have pauses in it. A consistent rate of turn, or a turn that slowly speeds up are far better than whipping the first 90 and then pausing only to continue turning a second or 2 later. At that time the pilot has lost airspeed, dive and has to regain it before accelerating further.

Wow...ok, so that was a lot longer reply than I anticipated, but I hope it answers some questions and gets you going in the right direction

Blues,
Ian


A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu


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[shadowswoop97 0]

Nice one about Stu, hes not retarded though just a little slow, but we will change that with a 450

[Vertifly 0]

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That's simply not true.

Stu is retarded

Think someone struck a cord? Everyone here is retarted!!!!!! Especially shadow. Swooping...daaahhhh....

If you are buying the derogatory sarcasm then you are also being a bit retarted.

It is not that I am not willing to try something new, because I've done a full brake to front riser approach. Never said that I didn't. I just prefer the other way, personally, as an experience pilot with a bit more time in a harness than you - tart.

[shadowswoop97 0]

Think someone struck a cord? Everyone here is retarted!!!!!! Especially shadow. Swooping...daaahhhh....

If you are buying the derogatory sarcasm then you are also being a bit retarted.

It is not that I am not willing to try something new, because I've done a full brake to front riser approach. Never said that I didn't. I just prefer the other way, personally, as an experience pilot with a bit more time in a harness than you - tart.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I thought it was "Gay" not "retarded"....
Just kidding Stu!! I'm out bitches!

[marks 0]

think about it from an aerodynamic standpoint.

you start pulling on shit you creat drag, correct?

if you think you can build more speed with double fronts, why not have the canopy re trimmed that way so you dont have to pull on them. then you could just get into the rears to abtain level flight again?
sounds stupid huh?

starting in full flight with all harness controll minimizes the amout of drag you create while turning. "because of deforming the wing less" so basically since there is less drag, "deforming" there is also less time needed in a turn to abtain the speed you get by yanking on shit.

it is kinda fun discussing it, but you got to admit, it is kinda retarted. ok "gay" grant.

[Vertifly 0]

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It doesn't really sound like you are "just discussing" when you are calling everyone retarded and a tart. That's just gay.

It doesn't sound like you are just responding to call me gay when you are telling my that I am not just discussing. I may just be psychoanalyzing here, but have you ever heard of the term, projection.

[trigger 0]

Though,for me starting my downwind leg in braked flight,greatly,imo reduces the front riser pressure of my canopy. This technique,allows me to pull my dive loops[both]down to nipple level,which inturn permits me to progressively "ease up" on a singular riser[dependent on direction to final]thoughout my desired degree of rotation,i ease up on the L/R front as my canopy accelerates into the"vertical"phase of its dive as i come onto heading.[usually into wind and into the pit]

For me,and i believe because of the reduced front riser pressure permited by a braked approach of this ,allows me to go deeper with double fronts at the begining of my rotation,i feel my canopy builds up more speed through the carve and into the vertical phase of its dive than i could achieve with a full flight approach to rotation to final so i guess i,m just plain old gay,i mean using the planet as a relative object

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[marks 0]

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Though,for me starting my downwind leg in braked flight,greatly,imo reduces the front riser pressure of my canopy. This technique,allows me to pull my dive loops[both]down to nipple level,which inturn permits me to progressively "ease up" on a singular riser[dependent on direction to final]thoughout my desired degree of rotation,i ease up on the L/R front as my canopy accelerates into the"vertical"phase of its dive as i come onto heading.[usually into wind and into the pit]

For me,and i believe because of the reduced front riser pressure permited by a braked approach of this ,allows me to go deeper with double fronts at the begining of my rotation,i feel my canopy builds up more speed through the carve and into the vertical phase of its dive than i could achieve with a full flight approach to rotation to final so i guess i,m just plain old gay,i mean using the planet as a relative object

I think you should re read what I posted.

what I said, is to not pull on anything.

[trigger 0]

Oh sorry dudebut while we're on topic what about using everything you got,risers and harness again carving technique into the vertical maximising your c of g to your advantage thoughout rotation.

Apologies in advance

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[marks 0]

no worries, it really is just difference of opinion.

but like I said in the previous post, pulling on things deforms the wing, causing more drag, the more drag, the longer you have to dive to achieve a speed, the less drag, the shorter time you have to turn to reach a speed.

it is just an opposing opinion, for this discussion.

[trigger 0]

Agreed..but in the case of a parachute i believe by being able to create a high angle of attack and slowly starting my turn and increasing the rate of turn thoughout rotation to final inducing energy into the harness which which i use to hold the canopy in a dive longer by harness weight shift combined with double fronts flying the canopy deeper into the dive as i ease up on one riser increasing my rate of turn and angle of attack into the vertical and as my canopy recovers into full flight i try to remain as forward in my harness as poss[chess strap losened!]to take advantage of the energy created in the harness during the recovery phase[i.e try and get my c of g as forward of the wing as poss to transfer that energy into flight] i find the this technique has worked the best for me in terms of high speed approaches. Besides i think at the end of the day its whatever works best for any pilot under any wing. I note that you're flying a jvx,which i guess is a very different animal from the canopy that i'm flying

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[marks 0]

It of course it is what works best for you..

but why cant you create that steep angle of attack with just your harness?

I do. by turning.

I use the riser if needed, but only if needed for a correction.

[trigger 0]

Maybe it's my loading[1.6+-.and the

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[trigger 0]

think about it from an aerodynamic standpoint.

you start pulling on shit you creat drag, correct?

Yes,but drag is always there regardless and by pulling on shit you also change the shape of the wing and therefore the way it flys.i.e your able to tailor the way your wing to flys to your advantage simply by pulling on shit . drag is not necessarily a bad thing

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[marks 0]

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think about it from an aerodynamic standpoint.

you start pulling on shit you creat drag, correct?

Yes,but drag is always there regardless and by pulling on shit you also change the shape of the wing and therefore the way it flys.i.e your able to tailor the way your wing to flys to your advantage simply by pulling on shit . drag is not necessarily a bad thing

then just re trim it so you dont have to pull on it every time..

now you get my point?..

[trigger 0]

And simply fly a ground hungry bastard

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[dlee 0]

polarbear i am with you. if your car goes 0-60 in 6 sec, and you start at 10 mph, in 5 sec you are going 60. if you start at 40 mph in 2 sec you are going 60. acceleration is acceleration, gravity for us.

I think the question is what is the terminal velocity of you and your canopy. The reason we hook turn to land is so that the lift from the canopy is not directly opposed to gravity. Thus, we pick up speed. The canopy can only create lift perpendicular to the top skin. put the top skin perpendicular to the ground and you and your canopy fall. You have a faster terminal velocity than your canopy, so eventually you will swing back underneth it. Unless you keep your turn going forever.

The "tightness" i.e. the radius, of your turn will determine the riser pressure.

Starting from full brakes makes the canopy surge forward and dive when the brakes are released, this means you have less work to do pulling the front risers to get the canopy diving. starting from full flight you need less acceleration to be at the same speed.