performance of crossfire 2 129 at lower than "recommended" wing loading

[wonderwoman07 0]

Hi,

I was looking to buy a crossfire 2 129. My exit weight on that size canopy would be 1.05 : 1. On Icarus' website, it says that the recommended wing loading for the crossfire 2 is 1.4 to 2.1. I would need to jump a 99 to come close to that a 1.4 wing loading, however, i don't want to jump a canopy that small. What would be any possible "problems" associated with jumping the crossfire 2 at my wing loading? The other canopy I am looking at is the Safire 2. I would like the performance of the Crossfire 2, but am just wondering about the affect of the low wing loading.

Thanks! and Blue Skies...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

The optimal performance of a Crossfire2 may be had at a higher wingloading in reference to inducing speed for a swoop. But that doesn't mean that you can't jump one at a lower loading and still be safe with it and have fun with it. The Crossfire2 is a very good wing and as long as you pilot it smart (no different from any canopy), you'll get to enjoy what a good wing it is. Plus if you have some real concerns about the lightly loaded 129, why not think about a 119?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Plus if you have some real concerns about the lightly loaded 129, why not think about a 119?

Because if their profile is correct they're jumping a PD 7-cell. Not sure the smallest they make those but I'm SURE that the move to a XF2 will be enough for right now.

Blues.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[wonderwoman07 0]

Yes, while it is true that my profile lists a PD 7 cell, that is because that's military issue...and it is what i jump most of the time. I have a little experience on a Sabre 2, a Pilot, a Safire and a Stiletto as well. And also...I'd like to put a few on a 129 before going even smaller.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Yes, while it is true that my profile lists a PD 7 cell, that is because that's military issue...and it is what i jump most of the time. I have a little experience on a Safire and a Stiletto as well. And also...I'd like to put a few on a 129 before going even smaller.

Good thoughts on staying on something bigger while you familiarize yourself with a wing. It's been said a million times before but downsizing and changing planform isn't usually the best thing to do. If you don't mind me asking, what's 'a little experience' on the safire and ST, and what size PD 7Cell do you do the bulk of your jumps on?

Safe landings.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[johnny1488 1]

The differences you would feel on those 2 canopies (Crossfire2 129 and Safire2 129) would be marginal.

The real difference between the Xfire2 and Safire2 comes into play at about 1.4. The Safire slowly drops off in performace losing low speed lift and the Xfire2 takes off with longer recovery arc and speed building characteristics.

At just over 1:1, you might not notice that the Xfire2 dives a bit more or stays in a turn a bit longer. But you might notice it if you get into a bit of "trouble". The Safire2 might give you a slightly larger "safety margin" that could outweigh the slight performance benefiets of a Xfire2 at that loading.

Give them both a shot, but if you want to er on the side of caution, the Safire2 will be a lot of fun at that loading and size.

Feel free to ask me any questions you might have.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[Reginald 0]

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What would be any possible "problems" associated with jumping the crossfire 2 at my wing loading?

I strongly suggest you talk to the manufacturer about this. If a canopy’s minimum suggested WL is 1.4 its there for a reason. The XF2 is a HIGH PERFORMANCE canopy. While this is not a cross braced I’ve known several people suffer canopy collapses while under loading cross-braced canopies. If the manufacture is suggesting a MINIMUM of a 1.4 WL they probably have a darn good reason for it. Do you really want to be jumping a high performance canopy outside the manufacturers recommendations? I would put some serious thought into this…

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[dragon2 0]

I now jump a vengeance 135 at the low wl of 1.15 to 1.2 with lead. According to PD I'm not underloading it but I still think I am It flies great though.

Icarus has a less conservative approach to wingloading than PD, so if the canopy opens handles fine.... That said, the safire would be a more logical choice for you imo. Why do you want a hp canopy? Do you want to swoop?

I don't so my vengeance is a weird choice, perhaps. If I had the money I'd buy a pilot 124 or maybe a safire2 119. But this vengeance was cheapest and I love it. A vengeance 120 was also available but I thought is was perhaps too sporty as I'm jumping less these days. This 135 still comes with a greater potential for opening problems and is way less forgiving of mistakes than even a smaller pilot or safire is, esp since I do a lot of birdman jumps.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mattjw916 2]

Underloading a Crossfire 2 is not a "problem" in the same way exceeding a similar "manufacturer's recommendation" like max suspended weight. That said, as was relayed to me in discussions with several people in the know, a Crossfire 2 flies much better when loaded up vs underloaded. If you want to load lightly, jump a Safire 2 was the general consensus of opinion since it will perform better loaded under 1.4. Conversely, a Safire's performance will start to suffer as you load it higher which is when a Crossfire starts to shine. The only complaint I heard regarding "underloaded" xfires was poor openings.

No modern elliptical I have ever heard of (or jumped) will "collapse" when underloaded. Some of them, a Nitron for instance, perform excellently loaded at 1.2.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[wonderwoman07 0]

Yes, i would like to get into swooping eventually and have just heard amazing overall comments about the XF2's flying ability.

Also, I really don't have much of a choice when it comes to "underloading" the canopy until I start getting pretty small size wize. My current exit weight is 135 pounds. So almost any canopy i'm going to jump is going to be underloaded. I know that the canopy will perform better at its recommend loading, but I would need to jump a 97 to get the min recommended loading.

It puts me in the dilema of...if i follow the "recommended" loading, I'd probably never jump a high performance canopy. So even though i know it's not going to have its "best" performance, i'm just trying to figure it out if it will still fly well and retain many of its good characteristics.

I plan on demoing both a Safire 2 and a Crossfire 2 anyways, but i was just looking for any advice on possible problems that might arise from underloading a hp canopy.

Thanks for all the help so far.

[johnny1488 1]

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but i was just looking for any advice on possible problems that might arise from underloading a hp canopy.

There are no underloading problems that I know of from underloading a Crossfire2.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[Reginald 0]

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No modern elliptical I have ever heard of (or jumped) will "collapse" when underloaded. Some of them, a Nitron for instance, perform excellently loaded at 1.2.

Your lack of knowledge or experience doesn’t change the situation. Let me give you the number of the rehabilitation center where one of my friends is spending the next year of his life and let him talk to you about under loading a modern cross braced and it collapsing on him at 50 feet. A cross-braced is a little different animal than a simple elliptical.

The XF2 is not a cross-braced canopy, but it is a HP canopy. If the manufacturer is recommending a minimum of a 1.4 there is a reason for it. I’d give them a call and ask why if I were looking at jumping one extremely under loaded.

And as for under loading a X-braced, knowing what I know now I’d never do it.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[dharma1976 0]

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No modern elliptical I have ever heard of (or jumped) will "collapse" when underloaded. Some of them, a Nitron for instance, perform excellently loaded at 1.2.

Your lack of knowledge or experience doesn’t change the situation. Let me give you the number of the rehabilitation center where one of my friends is spending the next year of his life and let him talk to you about under loading a modern cross braced and it collapsing on him at 50 feet. A cross-braced is a little different animal than a simple elliptical.

The XF2 is not a cross-braced canopy, but it is a HP canopy. If the manufacturer is recommending a minimum of a 1.4 there is a reason for it. I’d give them a call and ask why if I were looking at jumping one extremely under loaded.

And as for under loading a X-braced, knowing what I know now I’d never do it.

Just a quick FYI...

johnny1488 is one of the best resources I know of when it comes to questions about Icarus canopies so his responses to this question are probably the most valid on here...

johnny1488 is also the guy I go to when I want to demo icarus canopies btw

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[crazydiver 0]

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No modern elliptical I have ever heard of (or jumped) will "collapse" when underloaded. Some of them, a Nitron for instance, perform excellently loaded at 1.2.

Your lack of knowledge or experience doesn’t change the situation. Let me give you the number of the rehabilitation center where one of my friends is spending the next year of his life and let him talk to you about under loading a modern cross braced and it collapsing on him at 50 feet. A cross-braced is a little different animal than a simple elliptical.

The XF2 is not a cross-braced canopy, but it is a HP canopy. If the manufacturer is recommending a minimum of a 1.4 there is a reason for it. I’d give them a call and ask why if I were looking at jumping one extremely under loaded.

And as for under loading a X-braced, knowing what I know now I’d never do it.

Why equate this to him underloading the canopy? Crossbraced canopies can collapse just like any other, they are just less prone to. Any canopy and I mean ANY canopy at a light wingloading is more likely to collapse than a highly loaded canopy due to line tension, regardless of canopy design. However, saying that your friend is in the hospital for underloading a crossbraced canopy is bull. Even from the PD report on the velocity...and PD does a shitload of R&D, they say that the velocity is good from loadings of 1:1.

Cheers,
Travis

[mattjw916 2]

Hey slick, we're not talking about x-brace canopies so your story doesn't mean shit with regard to this thread. It's apples and oranges. The hows and whys for your friends injury have no bearing on this discussion. All you are doing is displaying _your_ ignorance since x-brace canopies and ellipticals are totally different canopies.

I know MANY people that have jumped a Crossfire loaded under 1.4. _I_ have jumped other "high-performance" ellipticals under 1.4, a couple of them actually. Have you? None of them collapse as you imply and to purport that they do is utterly incorrect.

Don't muddy the waters with unrelated stories.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[ryoder 1,406]

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Your lack of knowledge or experience doesn’t change the situation. Let me give you the number of the rehabilitation center where one of my friends is spending the next year of his life and let him talk to you about under loading a modern cross braced and it collapsing on him at 50 feet. A cross-braced is a little different animal than a simple elliptical.

The XF2 is not a cross-braced canopy, but it is a HP canopy. If the manufacturer is recommending a minimum of a 1.4 there is a reason for it. I’d give them a call and ask why if I were looking at jumping one extremely under loaded.

And as for under loading a X-braced, knowing what I know now I’d never do it.

Feel free to provide any references to documentation from manufacturers that back up the claim that underloading canopy makes it prone to collapse. I'd love to read it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.