Do the more experienced hold the lesser experienced back

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Since someone has claimed that another thread was hijacked, I thought I'd start this one up. So do you feel that the more experienced swoopers try to hold back the lesser experienced jumpers?

Back when I was getting into swooping I might have voted that some (not all) experienced people do hold the lesser experienced people back. But now that I've got a few more jumps under my belt, I think they don't (in most cases). We're all different and do progress at different rates. But in most cases I think the lesser experienced person just doesn't understand the message the more experienced jumper is trying to get across.

Of course this topic can be broken down in many sub-topics when it comes to canopy selection and swooping techniques. Plus it's also possible that my 1000 jump threshold still isn't considered experienced by people with way more experience than this figure. But we need to start somewhere.

I've got no problems with newer jumpers wanting to become swoopers. But I often think that these newer jumpers are confusing advice to not rush into things with "holding them back". So do more experienced swoopers hold lesser experienced jumpers back? I think the results of this poll will be easy to predict. But if the newer jumpers disagree with how advise is being given, then how can we open up better communication channels. Also, it's possible that part of the problem lies in the different experience and talent levels across the world. Obviously a bigger DZ which operates year round will have better more experienced swoopers at it and the smaller part time DZs just don't have the proper people around to mentor newer jumpers wanting to get into swooping. But that still shouldn't change the overall message that the more experienced jumpers are trying to send.

Swooping rocks ... but it is not safe ... and personally I think there are no short cuts. Coaching rocks, but it still requires hundreds and hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of jumps before the swooper actually becomes the swooper they want to be today.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[frost 1]

quick question - did you yourself heed the warnings? Or are you one of those "got titanium" people that say "dont do as I did"? :)

Edited to add: I think there is a tendency of some "older" jumpers to hold back the novices. I think it comes from a certain level "I was here before you, so what the fuck can you possibly know?" attitude. No matter how much they try to seem "cool" or "ego-less", these attitudes ARE alive and well.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

For the most part I listened to people and while I have hurt myself swooping (most recently at last year's CPC Championships), I have ... knock-on-wood ... no titanium in my body. But I'm sure I progressed faster than the average canopy nazi would recommend. I have received some form of canopy control coaching on four different occasions, but it wasn't until I spent last summer jumping virtually everyday (obviously multiply times a day) that I started to see real results in my swooping progression. But now that I'm not nearly as current as I was last summer, I know I'm not flying at the same level I was flying at back in September.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

Oh come on... For you people out there who think that more experienced people are getting together at a secret location only known to those with more that 1,000 swoops, and voting weather or not to give you the information that you rightfully deserve... Get over yourself. If some one doesn't tell you something then they may not feel that you need to know that info at that time in your jumping life. I'm going to tell an AFF student how to land with rear risers and what will happen when they do, but I will not recomend that they do it unless they have a broken steering line.

Now for the swooping aspect of it... I'm not going to tell a 100 jump wonder how to use rear risers to increase swoop distance. If you can tell me that you have the appropriate knowledge and skill to land canopies with rears to increase your swoop distance at those low jump numbers I'm going to tell you to show me. Then I'm going to tell you to keep working on your toggles. Am I holding you back?

NO

I'm helping you in the long run. 3/4 of the people landing on rears out there have no business doing it, and they are not getting any more distance than they would be with toggles. If you are a cool person, I'm going to think you are still cool if you still land with toggles. If you are landing with rears when you shouldn't be, then you are loosing cool points.

[frost 1]

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but it wasn't until I spent last summer jumping virtually everyday (obviously multiply times a day) that I started to see real results in my swooping progression. But now that I'm not nearly as current as I was last summer, I know I'm not flying at the same level I was flying at back in September

Excellent point - i can totally relate to that. Currency and number of (many) jumps per month are KEY to good flight techniques... take a break and you;re at risk

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But I'm sure I progressed faster than the average canopy nazi would recommend

then, unless i am totally missing your point, arent we being a little hypocritical? ;)

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[chachi 0]

i dont think the qualified community holds anyone back, just offers good warnings. but i think canopy piloting is evolving and because of all the "got titanium" people, people naturally do not want to see the people around them that they potentially give advice to hurting themselves. in my case, i was actually pushed into things i thought were ahead of me, including stepping into xbrace canopies.

i look at people and offer my advice based on who they are. the 100 jump wonder wanting to just "look" the part, or the 125 jump guy that wants to put the work, get the coaching, learn the actual methods and become a swooper. although i will be honest, being newer, i certainly watch the advice i give out lest i coach someone into hammering into the ground. something i do not wish to do.

as for just reading spizzarko's post i think people have missed my point. i am not recommending coaching someone to land on rears to increase the distance, more like wondering why we don't teach newer jumpers to use the rears. it is another method of controlling your canopy. obviously not for everyone but certainly a skill to be developed earlier than even getting into high performance landings.

[frost 1]

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Oh come on... For you people out there who think that more experienced people are getting together at a secret location only known to those with more that 1,000 swoops, and voting weather or not to give you the information that you rightfully deserve... Get over yourself.

Thats right! there is no such secret society (AKA The Secret Society of Swoopers over 1000 AKA SSS+1000)!!

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[davelepka 4]

It's pretty simple. A guy wants to do 'X' and I reccomend that it's not a good idea. With the lack of a reasonable argument against my reccomendation, he has two choices - agree with me, or come up with a false premis to counter my statement. "You're just trying to keep me down" fits right in.

The question here, is what benefit does any swooper get by holding back other swoopers?

There's no money or prizes at risk; and swooper even close to beating me in competition doesn't need to ask me about anything.

My ego doesn't need boosting, the fact that I'm the one being asked for advice takes care of that.

Then if you look at the flip side, which is what benefit would the new swooper get by making the accusation, you have an answer.

The guy is asking to do 'X' because he wants to. If I suggest otherwise, he stands to loose out on his desired experience. If he can argue agaist me, he may gain approval, and get to engage in 'X', which was his goal from day one.*

* I know that nobody needs permission to do anything, but for the sake of this argument, it's the best way to put it.

The whole concept is rediculous. How come you never such accusations coming from a highly experienced swooper in reference to another experienced swooper?

"Hey Jim Slaton, you're just trying to hold that kid back, thats all! I mean that, and if I don't my name isn't Ian Bobo!"

It's no coincidence that you only hear this from the less experienced guys.

To all the less experienced guys - get over it.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Ask yourself what are the reasons to land with rears:

1. Broken steering line.

2. Increasing swoop distance.

Now at what point in peoples jumping careers do they need to be doing each of these?

[marks 0]

telling someone "no you can't do that" is holding them back. I try to make it a point never to tell someone no.

I do however, try to educate, teach them why they would or why they wouldn't do something, if they choose not to listen, I choose not to educate them anymore.

then you get the ones who want advice, and to pick your brain. thats fine too, I give out all info I can freely to anyone who asks me. as soon as they go against the advice I give them, I no longer give out advice to them.

telling someone "no, you cant do that" will only bring out the ego in every wannabe swooper to prove you wrong, they will try and prove to you that they can. so to bring it full circle, don't tell them no, and give them advice until they don't take it.

[chachi 0]

i think people should learn all aspects of flight on every single canopy they ever own or jump. just the same as i recommend people to start landing cross wind, and down wind in specific conditions. rear risers should not just be restricted to the swoop arena.

here is q? how will jumper a know how to land his stilletto 120 on rear risers at 800 jumps when he breaks a steering line. what will have prepared him for that situation? he may not even be a swooper just a guy that loves his stilletto.

[frost 1]

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The question here, is what benefit does any swooper get by holding back other swoopers?

Can i throw my two cents in? It's not just about swooping, but anything in general.

The answer to your question is quite simple really: To feel better about themselves.

I have seen it myself - those who have been doing it ("it" can be anything) for a while seem to take it hard that someone with 2-3 years of experience can just come in and beat them at their own game, at something they have been doing for 10-12 years or more.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[chachi 0]

not everyone wants to be a competitive swooper but may want to extend flight on their chosen wing. watching guys with few jumps master techniques previously told only competitive swoopers should be doing was an eye opener. not just a swooper is keen enough to want to explore the canopy. some people just want to be great at what THEY jump. be total canopy pilots, that's how i encourage. what specifically is wrong with that ideaology?

[chachi 0]

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I have seen it myself - those who have been doing it ("it" can be anything) for a while seem to take it hard that someone with 2-3 years of experience can just come in and beat them at their own game, at something they have been doing for 10-12 years or more.

ego's get bruised easily in this sport. this is exactly what im talking about.

[Spizzzarko 0]

There's nothing wrong with practicing it up high, but when landing there is a solid object that gets in your way if you fuck up. "Total canopy pilot" fine, but you don't get to be the total canopy pilot with low jump numbers.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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ego's get bruised easily in this sport.

Some egos have been known to be bruised.

But there is a different between skill and experience and I do feel that experience trumps skill because experience has a way of keeping you out of trouble (not always of course) while too much skill too fast has been known to get people into trouble. I'm living proof of this last statement not having the proper experience to recognize the difference between airspeed and ground speed during a downwind speed carving swoop in competition. I had the skill to be on my rears, but I lacked the experience to recognize the trouble I put myself in and I paid the price. Fortunately it was a lesson that I was allowed to walk away from (I'm still not 100%). There is a reason why the experienced people say what they say. There know more about some of this stuff.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chachi 0]

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There's nothing wrong with practicing it up high, but when landing there is a solid object that gets in your way if you fuck up. "Total canopy pilot" fine, but you don't get to be the total canopy pilot with low jump numbers.

how do you get to be a total canopy pilot then? at 900 jumps does the rear riser flying part of your brain kick in? i think you are exactly who i was referring to in the other post. a guy that thinks you need hundred of jumps to start actually learning the flight characteristics of your canopy. dude, go to the ground launch centre. you will understand that low time canopy pilots can start "learning" how to use there rears close to the ground waaaay before the average person thought. i'll tell you this though, the canopy pilots that are emerging now are going to kick the level of flying up.

im not saying that immediately off solo status we should add these things but we do need to wrap our brains around the fact that it is probably better to learn these things under a larger wing, not going mach 11 how most of us learned it.

[chachi 0]

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here is q? how will jumper a know how to land his stilletto 120 on rear risers at 800 jumps when he breaks a steering line. what will have prepared him for that situation? he may not even be a swooper just a guy that loves his stilletto

you must have missed this. i was hoping for your input.

[chachi 0]

i think if he had of learned how his rears react while jumping his sabre2 150, then his pilot 132, then his odds of not breaking something on his stilletto 120, while landing off, into someone's back year would be much better.

[superstu 0]

Do more experienced CP's hold younger ones back? i don't think so. I think information is, and should be, given out on an as needed basis, meaning some people aren't ready for certain information in their canopy piloting career. for example if someone asks how to set up a 270 even though they've only done 90's, would you tell them? maybe, but i would hope the teacher at the time would also tell them why they should not being doing those manevers(sp). i don't think it's about holding people back, it's about giving out the right information at the right time.

now if someone won't tell you something unless you pay them for coaching, well that could be a different story, and that's happened to me. however, i do understand why. they've put in the time and effort to actually do the research and experimentation on it so why not get rewarded for it?

i don't know, these are just my thoughts on the subject. the best thing all jumpers (new and experienced) can do is ask more questions.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[CanuckInUSA 0]

First off I don't know why you're quoting me as saying something I didn't say.

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go to the ground launch centre. you will understand that low time canopy pilots can start "learning" how to use there rears close to the ground waaaay before the average person thought.

I've been to the GLC and yes I actually was flying my rears there before I started flying my rears during my swoops. But I did tons of high pulls building muscle memory before I went to my rears in a swoop. There is a difference between going to your rears at the GLC than there is in the middle of a hook.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chachi 0]

sorry, i hate this referring by clicking on someone. stop talking about people hooking and grabbing rears. NOT EVERYONE wants to be a swooper but should learn all flight characteristics of their canopy. including rear risers.

[chachi 0]

HEre is my question. Who here thinks that rear riser flight is a waste of time unless you are trying to extend your swoop distance.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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sorry, i hate this referring by clicking on someone. stop talking about people hooking and grabbing rears. NOT EVERYONE wants to be a swooper but should learn all flight characteristics of their canopy. including rear risers.

Well Grant has already pointed out that he instructs his AFF students on flying their rears and yes everyone regardless of whether or not they wish to swoop should know how to fly and land with their rears. But flying ones rears is not the topic of this thread just as it wasn't the topic in the "How to hold your toggles" thread (before myself and a few others hijacked it).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chachi 0]

^ good point. i think the answer to your question is evident now though. people may not hold back the information, but not many seem to encourage all types of flight no matter what canopy you fly or how much or little you swoop.

i think you can be an expert canopy pilot and never swoop.