Toggle grip for rear riser input

[LearningTOfly 0]

What's your personal style of gripping your toggles when the flare involves a transition from rear risers to toggles?

I generally loop my toggles around my first through ring fingers, leaving my little finger out, and use my thumb to make sure the toggle stays on. I realize though that this method may not work so safely when using rear risers to plane out as thumbs are now hooked around the risers and loosing a toggle becomes more possible.

Thoughts?

[robap26 0]

For a long time I used just my first two fingers in the toggles. When I started doing rear riser landings I found that having only two fingers in the toggles was not a good enough grip. Often when I would transition from risers to toggles I would nearly lose the toggle. I was stubborn and didn't want to put the toggle over my whole hand. It just felt funny after having done it the other way for so long. After actually dropping a toggle on a landing I decided to break the silly habit and put my whole hand in the toggle. Dropping a toggle for me was just a little tumble but it can be very nasty.
My advice; use your whole hand.
By the way, when I was being stubborn and not wanting to change my technique, I asked Shannon Pilcher the same question you are asking. He gave me the same answer I am giving you.

[RMURRAY 1]

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What's your personal style of gripping your toggles when the flare involves a transition from rear risers to toggles?

I generally loop my toggles around my first through ring fingers, leaving my little finger out, and use my thumb to make sure the toggle stays on. I realize though that this method may not work so safely when using rear risers to plane out as thumbs are now hooked around the risers and loosing a toggle becomes more possible.

Thoughts?

at 56 jumps you are landing with rear riser input? time to update your profile?

[larsrulz 0]

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at 56 jumps you are landing with rear riser input? time to update your profile?

I agree with your general idea that transitioning from rears to toggles is definitely an advanced manuever for someone with his jump numbers. Hell, I don't even feel comfortable transitioning, but that said...there is nothing wrong with someone with his jump numbers "landing with rear risers input". In fact, I think everyone at that level should be able to. If he has a broken brake line on his next jump, I would prefer he know how to land it and do such, than to just cut away a perfectly functioning main.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I generally loop my toggles around my first through ring fingers, leaving my little finger out

Personally I think you are holding your toggles wrong. But that's not the only thing I think you may be doing wrong.

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this method may not work so safely when using rear risers to plane out

As someone who's flying a Crossfire, you should be using the canopy's natural recovery arc to plane out and not your rears. What's your setup? If you don't know how to answer this question, then should you really be toying with an advanced landing maneuver such as transferring to toggles after the plane out?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I agree with your general idea that transitioning from rears to toggles is definitely an advanced manuever for someone with his jump numbers. Hell, I don't even feel comfortable transitioning, but that said...there is nothing wrong with someone with his jump numbers "landing with rear risers input". In fact, I think everyone at that level should be able to. If he has a broken brake line on his next jump, I would prefer he know how to land it and do such, than to just cut away a perfectly functioning main.

Asking how to hold your toggles is a valid question for anyone. But asking if I'm holding my toggles correctly after I plane out on rears and transferring to toggles is completely different than asking questions on how to land with your rears. Plus how can anyone possibly give a good explanation on the net in terms of landing on ones rears. This is more of a one-on-one coaching thing.

I've got no issues with a newer jumper wanting to be a swooper. Shit it wasn't long ago that I too was one of these newbies (and I'm sure I still am a newbie in many respects). But there are no short cuts to learning how to safely swoop (if there is such a thing as a safe swoop) and sadly this message doesn't seem to sink in on some people. Coaching is awesome because it arms the jumper with knowledge that may not have been there before. But the prospective swooper still needs to do the jumps and swooping takes hundreds and hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of jumps. There are no short cuts to becoming a swooper.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[larsrulz 0]

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Asking how to hold your toggles is a valid question for anyone. But asking if I'm holding my toggles correctly after I plane out on rears and transferring to toggles is completely different than asking questions on how to land with your rears. Plus how can anyone possibly give a good explanation on the net in terms of landing on ones rears. This is more of a one-on-one coaching thing.

I certainly agree with everything you said, I was merely disagreeing with the "at 56 jumps you are landing with rear riser input?" comment. I assume that his problem was that someone with this level of experience is doing rear to toggle transitions, particularly trying to get advice from an online message board to do it, and not with the fact of possibly using rear risers for landing, because I believe that learning to land on rears is very important, particularly when I see on here how many people mention that they would feel uncomfortable in breaking a brakeline and would probably cut away. It's definitely not as dangerous as someone deciding to start teaching themselves to swoop at 60 jumps, but someone shouldn't think that they have to keep their hands only on their toggles until they have 200 jumps, as that can be very dangerous for them.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[Cacophony 0]

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Asking how to hold your toggles is a valid question for anyone. But asking if I'm holding my toggles correctly after I plane out on rears and transferring to toggles is completely different than asking questions on how to land with your rears. Plus how can anyone possibly give a good explanation on the net in terms of landing on ones rears. This is more of a one-on-one coaching thing.

I certainly agree with everything you said, I was merely disagreeing with the "at 56 jumps you are landing with rear riser input?" comment. I assume that his problem was that someone with this level of experience is doing rear to toggle transitions, particularly trying to get advice from an online message board to do it, and not with the fact of possibly using rear risers for landing, because I believe that learning to land on rears is very important, particularly when I see on here how many people mention that they would feel uncomfortable in breaking a brakeline and would probably cut away. It's definitely not as dangerous as someone deciding to start teaching themselves to swoop at 60 jumps, but someone shouldn't think that they have to keep their hands only on their toggles until they have 200 jumps, as that can be very dangerous for them.

I think the point is that who cares how you are holding your toggles if its an emergency as long as you are holding them. Yes a person with low jump numbers should be able to handle a situation like a lost toggle or broken brake line, but it doesn't mean that they should be experimenting with it a lot. With 60 jumps on any canopy, let alone, total, you still don't even have your flare perfect WITH toggles yet! Granted if you have thousands of jumps, then the time it takes to learn the controls diminishes, but it still takes time.

My point is that you should worry more about flaring well in different wind conditions, avoiding obstacles, avoiding traffic, off DZ landings, accuracy..... before you worry about something trivial like how many fingers or at what angle you hold your toggles with while performing an EMERGENCY landing. Simple...... if you don't know, then you don't have the experience to mess with it, so just hold them!!!

Now if this post is about swooping using your rears, then that is totally different. Simple. Don't even try until you have hundreds and hundreds of jumps. End of story!! And I don't mean just 200 jumps either.

[RMURRAY 1]

"but someone shouldn't think that they have to keep their hands only on their toggles until they have 200 jumps, as that can be very dangerous for them"

I would disagree with your statement above. That number needs to be much higher, especially in Canada where we are not able to jump full time all year round (my local DZ is open all year and we still often get no jumps on a weekend).

rm

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, the obvious problems surrounding this situation has been addressed, so I'll address your question.


I have the toggles around my palms, with my ring finger/pinky finger closed. That gives me the index and middle finger for the dive loops. I close my hands and hook my thumbs on the rears to pull my rears back and out for "swoop input." When playing around up high, I'll do the same for quick rear input, otherwise I actually just grab the rears with my hands (usually still holding the toggles the same) to do what ever sort of input I need to use.

The way you describe holding the toggles makes it easier to drop a toggle in transition or bailing off of rears. Then again, at your jump numbers that is the very least of your worries in that regard right now.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[meatbomb 0]

This is a subject that I've always found curious...I don't know if I've been blessed with the right size of hands (and toggles) or just an enormous amount of luck, but I've never (cue much wood touching) come close to having any issues with holding my toggles normally, and using rears on landing.

When I first read about this subject, I wondered about it, and every now and then, when up high, I've tried to come up with a way to drop a toggle...I just can't conceive it...

Looking at a photo of myself taken the other day, I see that I am holding the toggle normally, over my four closed fingers, and grasping the risers with my thumbs. This would appear to be why I'm not having any issues...I'm doing it the same as Aggie!

I'll post the photo later to make myself clear...(and to pose! )

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[frost 1]

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As someone who's flying a Crossfire, you should be using the canopy's natural recovery arc to plane out and not your rears.

Does the X-fire not benefit from the sling shot effect created by forced rear riser recovery from the dive?

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[marks 0]

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What's your personal style of gripping your toggles when the flare involves a transition from rear risers to toggles?

I hold my toggles in around my palm with my pinky finger and ring finger locking it in place, then my index finger and middle finger to use front risers and my whole hand to grab the rears, still locking the toggles in with with the two fingers.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Does the X-fire not benefit from the sling shot effect created by forced rear riser recovery from the dive?

I'm sure someone with 1200+ jumps can recognize this sling shot effect you reference. But planing out on ones rears is an advanced maneuver. Not something that should be done by someone trying to emulate the big dogs before they've put their time into the sport.

But this thread is about how to hold your toggles right?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[frost 1]

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But this thread is about how to hold your toggles right?

That is EXACTLY right

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[davelepka 4]

Here's what I do, and it's worked like a charm for me -

I make sure that L always have a grip on my toggle that is secure for whatever manuver I'm attempting.

I also make sure that those toggles are attached to a canoyp appropriate for my skill level, and that the manuvers I use those toggles for are also appropriate for my skill level.

By the time you are palying with rears on a Crossfire, you should be well past figuring out how to hold your toggles. Well past.

[mattjw916 2]

I use the same method...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[chachi 0]

toggle around entire hand is the general preferred method. safest probably.

fyi, you should see all the guys ground launching that only have between 80 - a few hundred jumps all landing on rears. don't think that advanced techniques can only be done safely by people with thousands of jumps. anybody that wants to invest time and get coaching can learn to be a proficient canopy pilot. GET COACHING though...

[ntacfreefly 0]

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fyi, you should see all the guys ground launching that only have between 80 - a few hundred jumps all landing on rears. don't think that advanced techniques can only be done safely by people with thousands of jumps. anybody that wants to invest time and get coaching can learn to be a proficient canopy pilot. GET COACHING though...

Launching and landing on rears is entirely different to performing an aggressive diving manuever from 700 ft + and landing on rears. Sure, if done right there's little difference in the actual application but landing safely on rears from an aggressive turn is about knowing when,how much and when to bail.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[chachi 0]

you do not need to use any aggressive input before landing to use your rears, and then transfer to toggles. straight in landings... baby steps....

[ntacfreefly 0]

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you do not need to use any aggressive input before landing to use your rears, and then transfer to toggles. straight in landings... baby steps....

I realize that, however not everyone reading your post will. Using your groundlaunching example won't help people 'land on their rears' like most will be trying to do. My bet is that MOST pilots who are asking about this are asking because they're 'swooping' or doing some sort of turn to final. Those are the ones that will read a post like yours and think that coaching and groundlaunching will make them ok to land on rears.

90% of people I see using 'rears to land and swoop farther' are swooping shorter than if they focused on better toggle technique.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[chachi 0]

my point was that rear risers are not some big confusing thing that you need thousands of jumps to start learning to fly on, and take advantage of. high performance canopy pilots seem to try and keep it a mystery but all canopies can use them to begin to plane out and transfer. it would make it safer later on when things are going 5 times faster.

GET COACHING ON ANYTHING YOU READ IN HERE.

[LearningTOfly 0]

Thanks all for the input-

The details mentioned are very helpful. The switch to the 'palm grip seems awkward in my mind, but in reality I'm sure it will flow. Thanks again.

And agreeing with what chachi said... ...baby steps

[ntacfreefly 0]

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high performance canopy pilots seem to try and keep it a mystery

That is a pretty stupid generalization and it reeks of an attitude that people are trying to 'hold you back'.

Almost all the HP pilots I've ever met, at least those with any credibility, offer the best advice they can for the person asking the question. Sometimes, that answer isn't what the student wants to hear.

It has nothing to do with keeping anything a mystery. It has everything to do with keeping our next generation of pilots safer. Those that don't understand that simply never will.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[davelepka 4]

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my point was that rear risers are not some big confusing thing that you need thousands of jumps to start learning to fly on, and take advantage of. high performance canopy pilots seem to try and keep it a mystery but all canopies can use them to begin to plane out and transfer

One point thats being overlooked is that landing with rears, or landing with rears and a toggle transfer isn;t the way people are taught from the start.

Adding these things to a landing represents a huge increase in pilot workload on short final and landing. For this reason alone, you need to be careful in who you suggest this to.

Even a guy who seems to have it all together can and will get distracted by the rears and the transition, and it will be at the expense of a properly timed or even flare.

It's the most crucial phase of a canopy flight, and as such needs to be treated with care.