flyhi 24 #1 November 8, 2005 On page 74 of Brian Germain's book, he states that the initiation altitude for all entries should be the same regardless of the degrees of the turn to final. I have been using about 400 feet if it is a 90, 600 for a 180, and 800 for a 270. I assume what he he is saying is all of them should be initiated at 800 with a lot more carving on the 90 and 180. I am by no means doubting wht Brian says (Everytime I reread the book, I pick up something new and worthwhile.). Just wondering what your standard practice is on this and if you agree with my interpretation. MahaloShit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxx 1 #2 November 8, 2005 Is it possible to carve a 90 from 800? I really can't imagine that. Sure, you can hold double fronts from 800 and then do a 90 at the end, but I'm sure he meant something else with carving Cheers, Max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendragon 1 #3 November 8, 2005 Quote... the initiation altitude for all entries should be the same regardless of the degrees of the turn to final. I have been using about 400 feet if it is a 90, 600 for a 180, and 800 for a 270. I assume what he he is saying is all of them should be initiated at 800 with a lot more carving on the 90 and 180. Your interpretation doesn't really make sense to me. What I think is being said is that the point at which you set up ought to be the same: you should always be initiating your landing approach at the same altitude (which may not involve front riser input straight away). That's my take on it anyway... Richard-- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #4 November 8, 2005 I'm no swooper, I just film them, but that sounds weird... AFAIK, more degrees = higher altitude, with variations (quick turns vs slow carves, different canopies, different WL). If a swooper starts his 630 turn at 950 ft, that would be one hell of a carve for a 90? Doesn't make sense ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chapsta 0 #5 November 8, 2005 I read it that way too... IMHO he's talking about methods of approach that are variable in the altitude lost... so even if conditions are slightly different your turn should start at the same altitude since your turn, dive, approach has buffer. It's the initiation point that changes... not the altitude. Just my take on the literature. ChapsCarpe diem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #6 November 8, 2005 I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe he's talking about altering initiation altitude due to wind conditions, not degrees of rotation. In other words, the prevailing wind conditions should not alter your initiation altitude, just your initiation location. Sorry if I'm insulting your intelligence . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #7 November 8, 2005 QuoteOn page 74 of Brian Germain's book, he states that the initiation altitude for all entries should be the same regardless of the degrees of the turn to final. may be i have a different print version?... NOWHERE on page 74 can i find that. Could you clarify by giving the chapter/paragraph reference? (in my book page 74=Chapter 5 "Landnings"/paragraph "The perfect stop")SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jogi 0 #8 November 9, 2005 Its all about turning rate...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Widgeon 0 #9 November 9, 2005 Send Brian a PM about this question. He almost always answers within a week or less unless he's off coaching somewhere and busy. I've always gotten replies from him overnight. I believe his screen name is 'BrianSGermain'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #10 November 9, 2005 QuoteCould you clarify by giving the chapter/paragraph reference? I have the 3rd Edition and it is in Chapter 5, High Speed Approaches and Landings: the section is Altitude-Location Checkpoints. The exact quote is: "Do not vary the "Initiation Altitude", only the location of the initiation point." Earlier he states: "It is essential to understand that the entry into the pattern does not vary in altitude." And later he defines "Initiation Point" as: "the location at which you being your turn". As I look at it now, I am beginning to think he means that from 90 to 90 (ad nauseum) do not vary your altitude but vary the IP for the effects of the wind, DA, etc. Mahalo for the input. I read it early in the day thus possibly explaining the apparent befuddlement.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #11 November 9, 2005 Cool, thanks for the reference! Must be different editions - in my book it's actually Chapter 6(!) - page 90... I think the folks above answered it - if you are faced with different conditions (i.e. - wind change) you alter the intitiation point ONLY, not the initiation altitude - just look at figure 34 on that page (or next, depending on your book). But initiation altitude WILL be different for 90 vs 270 :)SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #12 November 9, 2005 Quote"Do not vary the "Initiation Altitude", only the location of the initiation point This advice sounds like it's more for accuracy with your swoop, with no change in the degree of turn. Quote"It is essential to understand that the entry into the pattern does not vary in altitude." There is a difference between entry to the pattern. and your initiation point or altitude. Your initiation altitude will vary with the degree of turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #13 November 9, 2005 QuoteOn page 74 of Brian Germain's book, he states that the initiation altitude for all entries should be the same regardless of the degrees of the turn to final. I have been using about 400 feet if it is a 90, 600 for a 180, and 800 for a 270. I assume what he he is saying is all of them should be initiated at 800 with a lot more carving on the 90 and 180. I am by no means doubting wht Brian says (Everytime I reread the book, I pick up something new and worthwhile.). Just wondering what your standard practice is on this and if you agree with my interpretation. Mahalo Figured I should get in there and say something. I had no intension of suggesting that you start your 90's at 800 feet. That would be silly. What I meant was that your initiation altitude should not be altered based on wind conditions. The only things that should alter initiation altitude is density altitude, and the degree of heading change. Sorry I didn't explain myself well enough... +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swooopa-x 0 #14 November 24, 2005 Thanx for the reply brian. when i first read it about a year ago i also thought #*?? that seems a little unclear . Nice to hear from the man himself is all i'm saying. thank youPeople dont care how much you know until they know how much you care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
