SuperKat 0 #1 September 9, 2004 I've taken 3 different Scott Miller canopy control courses, one Heath Richardson course at X-keys and just this past may a Flight 1 canopy camp course with both Scott Miller and Heath Richardson as the instructors. I've got about 60 Hop and Pop jumps practicing manuevers such as, 1/4 brake turns, 1/2 brake turns, deep brake turns, front riser dives, 180 front riser turns, canopy stalls, landing approaches with 1/4 brakes and 1/2 brakes, and planing out with 180 front riser turns and front riser dives. Since May this year till present, I did 30 hop and pops practicing these maneuvers. When executing the front riser dives and 180 front riser turns, I've always watched my alti to notice how much altitude I've lost. Don't mind the book, I just want y'all to know what I've accomplished. I feel that I'm ready to do both front risers for a landing approach. To be on the safe side, I would execute this manuever at least by 600 feet for starters. I would also execute this maneuver into the wind. And yes of course I will watch out for oncoming traffic and obstacles before I do this. And yes, I will talk to my instructors and Heath Richardson before I do this. I just wanted an outsiders take on this. I've been dreaming and day dreaming about this. I'm too friggin' excited. Let me know what you think. And thanks in advance for your input. Here's one of my landing videos. It's from the Flight 1 camp back in May. Not a very graceful one because of "no wind" but it's funny cuz a dog's chasing me and as I was trying to cheat by touching it, it looks like the dog's gonna bite me and I jump out of the way. This was an accuracy jump. I was the closest one when I landed about 10 feet away from an orange frisbee out of the group of 7 people that were trying to hit it! Whoo Hoo! 12MB video http://www.superkatnyc.com/landingwithdoglarge.mpg A cleaner and more recent no wind landing: 2.5MB video http://www.superkatnyc.com/landing08large.mpg What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #2 September 9, 2004 What kind of approach to landing do you currently do? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #3 September 9, 2004 QuoteWhat kind of approach to landing do you currently do?A swoo approach. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #4 September 9, 2004 If you are loading a Spectre at .95 I wouldn't attempt anything but a straight in "double front" riser approach. You will need to practice that for a while then move into a canopy with a longer recovery arc so you don't hurt yourself. My opinion.. Also, 1st video- flare looked a tad quick. 2nd video- good staged flare, I don't believe you used the entire speed range of the canopy. You were only about 1/2 brakes when you started running. It is very important that you learn the slow speed range of your canopy before the high speed. How many jumps do you have? How many stand up landings? What advice did your canopy coaches give you?? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #5 September 9, 2004 Dude, I can swoop the piss out of a Spectre at .9. There is no reason whatsoever that this person cannot do HP turns under that canopy. It's not the canopy; it's the progression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NJSkydiver 0 #6 September 9, 2004 Quote1st video- flare looked a tad quick.Dude, look at the video again. It's a no wind day. 1st stage flare, the canopy didn't plane out and my sink rate didn't slow down either. So what do I do if I don't want to hit the ground hard? I finish the flare faster. Quote2nd video- good staged flare, I don't believe you used the entire speed range of the canopy. You were only about 1/2 brakes when you started running.Once again no wind day, the canopy didn't plane out at the first stage flare. If you look at the video again, I'm finishing the flare before I hit the ground and while I'm running it out. QuoteHow many jumps do you have? 210 QuoteHow many stand up landings?205 QuoteWhat advice did your canopy coaches give you??Both Scott Miller and Heath Richardson are aware of the spectre's flight characteristics, my wing loading and my performance on it. They think I land it pretty well. They had no complaints on the timing of the first stage flare or last stage flare. Those aren't my best landings. Those videos are both no wind landings. Scott has video'd me land 40 times for his courses and Heath has video'd me land 15 times. With each and every landing they both said that I'm getting better at it.- What do I owe beer for this time? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 September 9, 2004 QuoteIt's not the canopy; it's the progression. And from the darkness, a voice of reason sounds. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #8 September 9, 2004 If you have Scott and Heath guiding you, and you're listening to what they say and following their progression tactics, I believe you cannot go wrong. Sounds to me like you're on the right track. Good luck. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #9 September 9, 2004 QuoteDude, I can swoop the piss out of a Spectre at .9. There is no reason whatsoever that this person cannot do HP turns under that canopy. It's not the canopy; it's the progression.Whoo hoo! Thanks dude. I don't plan on downsizing from this canopy until I reach 1000 jumps. I plan on milking this mutha for everything it's got. And no, I won't get tired of it until then. 1000 is my mark no more no less and I'm sticking to it! What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #10 September 9, 2004 Quote1st video- flare looked a tad quick.Dude, look at the video again. It's a no wind day. 1st stage flare, the canopy didn't plane out and my sink rate didn't slow down either. So what do I do if I don't want to hit the ground hard? I finish the flare faster. Quote2nd video- good staged flare, I don't believe you used the entire speed range of the canopy. You were only about 1/2 brakes when you started running.Once again no wind day, the canopy didn't plane out at the first stage flare. If you look at the video again, I'm finishing the flare before I hit the ground and while I'm running it out. QuoteHow many jumps do you have?210 QuoteHow many stand up landings?200 QuoteWhat advice did your canopy coaches give you??Both Scott Miller and Heath Richardson are aware of the spectre's flight characteristics, my wing loading and my performance on it. They think I land it pretty well. They had no complaints on the timing of the first stage flare or last stage flare. Those aren't my best landings. Those videos are both no wind landings. Scott has video'd me land 40 times for his courses and Heath has video'd me land 15 times. With each and every landing they both said that I'm getting better at it. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #11 September 9, 2004 QuoteIf you have Scott and Heath guiding you, and you're listening to what they say and following their progression tactics, I believe you cannot go wrong. Sounds to me like you're on the right track.They will always be my gurus and mentors. Whenever Scott stops by my DZ I take his courses, even if it's overkill or if I've taken the same classes over again. It's like being in college for over 10 years. I just can't get enough. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #12 September 9, 2004 Do you think 600 feet is too high for a double front riser approach? If not, I'm probably going to do about a few hundred of these before I do a 180 front riser approach. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #13 September 9, 2004 600 feet for double fronts is way high, but it is always best to start out too high and slowly dial it down. To give you an idea of the heights I use for my VX loaded 1.97 to 1, I do a harness 180° approach from 550 feet. With my Xaos 98 loaded 2.19 to 1, I do a harness with front riser input 180° from 650 feet. Once again always start out too high and dial it down slowly. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #14 September 9, 2004 Quote600 feet for double fronts is way high, but it is always best to start out too high and slowly dial it down.That's exactly what I plan on doing. I want to start off at 600. I will watch my alti and notice when I'm "in the corner". Then, I will, how you put it, dial it down a bit, in baby steps of course. I'm very anal and very very very careful so there's no rush for me to expedite my learning process or downsize my canopy. I plan on staying in this sport till I turn to dust. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #15 September 9, 2004 QuoteDo you think 600 feet is too high for a double front riser approach? I also think it's too high. well you can't go wrong by tryin that high for the first time . Otherwise think this. You let go of both front risers couple of meters/feets before you would start your normal flare. How many meters/feets that is of course depends on how much input (both front risers) you gave and of the recovery arc. but with loading 0.9 and the canopy you have, that can't be that much. And you gain maximum speed in both front risers quite quick (i don't know about 5 seconds or even less). so unless you loose 600 feet in 5 seconds, i think it's safe to start a little lower (i have in mind about 100-200 feet) But like you said try it out yourself and listen to canopy coaches as you did. "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #16 September 9, 2004 Quotei think it's safe to start a little lower (i have in mind about 100-200 feet)100-200 feet is scary dude. I come from the school of the 10 second rule. Provided, there are no obstacles, you leave the toggles alone for the last 10seconds or 100 feet of flight, until it's time to flare. QuoteBut like you said try it out yourself and listen to canopy coaches as you did.I just heard it straight from the horses mouth. Scottie told me to not try this on my own as a landing approach and to seek coaching from Heath first. So until I can afford more canopy coaching, I can only imagine I'm landing like this from above 2000 feet. I would really like to attempt to do this on my own but I hate the idea of dying in a hospital bed. So I'll just wait till I have the $$$$ to take more coaching. However, a big part of me inside feels confident enough to do this. And confident enough to know I'll be okay afterwards but I have to listen to the principal. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #17 September 9, 2004 The 10 second rule won't work if you want to swoop. All the speed will have been bled off by that point. Typically I make my turn in the last 15 seconds of landing and let go of my fronts at about 35-50 feet in a turning dive. What they are talking about in terms of dialing it in is that you need to start by doing double front approaches till you have them mastered. Then make a 45 degree turn till its mastered, move up to a 90 degree turn. Master the 90 so that on every jump you are hitting the right altitude, the right accuracy and the right flare. Determine if you are holding the front riser too long or too short. After the 90 is mastered move up to a 135 degree turn. Master that and move onto the 180. The anything over 90 is really hard to master since you now need a complete understanding of the 3D flight environment and how to adjust if you are too high, too low and for accuracy. On a normal double front start at about 200-300 feet and only pull them down an inch or two till about 50 feet and see the results. Eventually you will learn just how far to pull them down to get the best speed while not increasing your sink too much and where to let them go to get the best landings. You will aslo be able to start letting them go at an altitude that lets the canopy arc swing out and build speed for landing for you. If you are near the Ranch you might want to contact Sonic, I've heard they do canopy coaching for free from time to time there. But talk to Heath and run these ideas by him before you do anything. You don't need to have paid coaching to do everything, some times just advice from Pros helps a lot Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #18 September 9, 2004 QuoteQuotei think it's safe to start a little lower (i have in mind about 100-200 feet)100-200 feet is scary dude. I come from the school of the 10 second rule. Provided, there are no obstacles, you leave the toggles alone for the last 10seconds or 100 feet of flight, until it's time to flare. You just won't be able to hold the risers down that long or it will really wear out your arms and you won't gain much more speed after the first few seconds anyways. I won't get into what I am working on in my progression because I'm def. not qualified to explain most of this stuff to another person, but you will figure out real quick that 600ft is quite a bit high for double fronts.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #19 September 9, 2004 QuoteThe 10 second rule won't work if you want to swoop.Yes, I am aware of that. It's just that I have to do this in baby steps. All my 200 and some odd jumps have been straight in approaches with no toggle input for the last 10 seconds. This will obviously take some time for me to dial it down. And I will take my sweet time because I've witnessed too many low turn injuries. QuoteWhat they are talking about in terms of dialing it in is that you need to start by doing double front approaches till you have them mastered. Then make a 45 degree turn till its mastered, move up to a 90 degree turn. Master the 90 so that on every jump you are hitting the right altitude, the right accuracy and the right flare. Determine if you are holding the front riser too long or too short. After the 90 is mastered move up to a 135 degree turn. Master that and move onto the 180. The anything over 90 is really hard to master since you now need a complete understanding of the 3D flight environment and how to adjust if you are too high, too low and for accuracy. On a normal double front start at about 200-300 feet and only pull them down an inch or two till about 50 feet and see the results. Eventually you will learn just how far to pull them down to get the best speed while not increasing your sink too much and where to let them go to get the best landings. You will aslo be able to start letting them go at an altitude that lets the canopy arc swing out and build speed for landing for you. Thanks that's definitely dialing it down in baby steps. QuoteIf you are near the Ranch you might want to contact SonicScott suggested the same exact thing because a lot of times Heath is just too busy with Monkey Claw coaching and what not. QuoteI've heard they do canopy coaching for free from time to time there.Now that's some deal. If I'm lucky and can probably get some freebies from Heath too. I'll let him know I'm strapped for cash right now. Maybe that sad pathetic story will open his heart. QuoteYou don't need to have paid coaching to do everything, some times just advice from Pros helps a lotI've got an idea. I'll tell heath that I plan on doing double front riser approaches on my next jump and other maneuvers for every preceeding jump. Then, he'll spill out free coaching for me and by the time he realizes he's been giving me free information, I'd be swooping the pond already and beating him in swoop meets. Damm, I'm good. Seriously, I'll definitely try in seeking pointers and advice from other swoopers at the DZ too. Thanks for all your help everyone. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #20 September 9, 2004 Quote100-200 feet is scary dude. Hmm seing a ground rush at that height could be scarry, but not straight in double fronts. Anyway the coaches you took class with, saw you land and know you. so the best way is to listen to them. Though you sometimes have to figure some things on your own with advices from experienced people. unless you have millions of dollars, because coaches aren't free. But you found that out already"George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #21 September 9, 2004 QuoteHmm seing a ground rush at that height could be scarry, but not straight in double fronts.Yeah okay tough guy, easy for you to say. Why don't you go back in time when you had 50 jumps and see if you'd feel the same way. QuoteAnyway the coaches you took class with, saw you land and know you. so the best way is to listen to them. Though you sometimes have to figure some things on your own with advices from experienced people. unless you have millions of dollars, because coaches aren't free. But you found that out alreadyMan, that is so true. I can't afford to spend money on canopy coaching any more. I think I'm pretty capable of learning on my own now with expert advices from other people, like you mentioned previously. I mean spending all that money was worth it but my pockets have holes now. Time for me to start using what I've learned to use. I'll stick to doing the slow turtle paced method and just gradually dial things down within a couple of hundred jumps. It's time I leave the bird's nest and start flying on my own. And yes, I will always consult others before performing a new maneuver. For now, it's straight in double front riser approaches from 600 feet. Then, I'll slowly dial it down in baby steps. Thanks for the support Grega. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #22 September 9, 2004 At 600 feet you are probally still in your down wind if not your base portion of the pattern. Its best to only use the fronts on your final leg. If you are really on final at 600 feet then I'd hate to see how big of a landing are you need Holding fronts down takes a lot of effort, don't wear yourself out and not have enough strength left to flare with Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #23 September 10, 2004 QuoteAt 600 feet you are probally still in your down wind if not your base portion of the pattern. Its best to only use the fronts on your final leg.Well actually, I was planning on adjusting my pattern legs so that by 600 feet I'd be at my final leg. If traffic permits of course. I would never do this if there's traffic around. 99.99% of the time when I'm doing hop & pops, the whole sky is mine. I usually don't do practice canopy maneuvers if I jump from full altitude. I refuse to do that with other canopies in the air, that's just me being anal and too careful. QuoteHolding fronts down takes a lot of effort, don't wear yourself out and not have enough strength left to flare withYou obviously don't know Superkat. I'm strong like bull. Seriously, when I'm doing hop and pops and my canopy is open at 4,000 feet, I do right and left 360 flat turns at half brakes, 2 practice two stage flares, hold down both front risers for 10 seconds, two 180 left and right front riser turns and a practice stall with toggle wraps and one with rear risers before 2,000 feet and still have enough umpfh to flare. It's quite a workout but I can do 5 of those hop & pop drills a day. Too bad this workout doesn't help my gut any. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #24 September 10, 2004 Rhino, Is your profile information really correct? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #25 September 10, 2004 What I meant was... Why go from straight in to a 180. 'Round these here part in Nor Cal, we like to start folks off with 45s then 90s, etc. It helps you learn to build speed in a turn. Identify how low is too low. And gives you a good view of traffic. Unlike a 180. I don't think a 180 is a good starting point. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
