Front Risers on landind

[bertusgeert 1]

I know I know its dangerous! Thats why I ask! I wont do it ! Sorry!

Ok, so I love playing with my canopy, have done a lot of reading on it, and understand airflow very well. I have played a heck of a lot with it up top.
(I have done a lot of reading on planes since I was little as well).
I want to know a ballpark for how many jumps I need to start using front risers to not overshoot my target. (not to pick up speed to swoop, but just for acc.)

I know my instructors are the best resort, but I jump at a tiny DZ, and the DZO is the only instructor, and he is extremely, overly safety conscious. He tells me I need a 250 F111, and I have jumped a 220 several times no prob, on target, standup. (even the guys at Deland said I'm overdue to use a smaller canopy). See my prob?

So any advice? I weigh 175.

(also... I want to buy a canopy, and my DZO is trying to sell me a 250 he has. I KNOW I'll be bored VERY quickly, and I want to keep the canopy for at least a hundred jumps or so to make it worthwhile. So what is a safe canopy size to start out on? Other very experienced jumpers have told me that a 170 - 190 would be a good range to look at and try out before I buy.)

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[marks 0]

34 jumps with 1 year in the sport and you weigh 175.
so your exit weight is close to 200..

i would stick on the 220 till you are more current

[bertusgeert 1]

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34 jumps with 1 year in the sport and you weigh 175.
so your exit weight is close to 200..

i would stick on the 220 till you are more current

Started jumping last Sept. Put 19 in before October. Kept current over the winter, and a little more. Went to Deland 3 weeks ago and put in 9 jumps. Going to put in 5 this weekend.

So maybe not AS uncurrent as you thought, but I understand I am still very inexerienced. I'll change my time in sport to <1year.

Thanks for the advivce.

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[Courteney 0]

Gotta agree with him. 34 jumps...175 pounds...stick to the 220. No point buying a 250, hell you might as well be back on s/l. Be patient and a canopy will come along. If you were a little lighter I would've suggested lifting some weights to build those arms to pull the front risers on a 220 but you probably don't have that problem with your current WL. Have you tried S-turns to prevent overshooting?
Btw, isn't the saying AS JY DOM IS MOET JY KAK! Of
BOETIE! KOM KYK, HIER KOM KAK!!!

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!

[Skydvr823 0]

I'll tell you the same thing I tell newer jumpers at my DZ. I think it is all about how your canopy skills are on what your flying. Are you a heads up pilot? how are your landings? If you are landing what you currently jump okay, then there is no reason you can't downsize to around a 210 or a 190. Another consideration is the size of the landing area at your DZ. What are your outs like. You have to feel okay landing off in someones backyard with whatever you jump.

[bertusgeert 1]

I have always had on target landings, and only one non-standup, my 5th, first one in no winds, so I wasnt used to the forward speed and tripped, my instructor watched me and told me it was all good, I just wasnt prepared to run, the flare was fine.

I am a very heads up pilot. I used to play a lot of FlightSim in heavy traffic doing touch and goes. I think this actually gave me a lot of sense about looking around, being aware of a lot of things that applies to canopy flying as well.

The outs at my DZ is great on one side, some trees, but quite a bit of open space. The airport is pretty dang big itself. The other side is buildings and yards. I have never had an off landing (yet!)

My landings has never been over 30 yards off, and the last 20 jumps I have def. been within 20 yards consistently, often even more accurate.

I know about S turns, and use them. I also know about the glideslope trick and use that.

Front risering is not a problem at all. Anytime throughout my canopy flight I can pull and hold them fully as long as I need to. I climb quite a bit, so this isnt a prob.

So thanx for the advice. I understand that Safety is of primary concern, and even if I was the bestest, i will not use the front risers on approach until later when I get some direct instruction. I was simply wondering when it would be safe for someone to try.

Ans in reply to skydvr823, I see what you are saying, and that is kinda what I'm thinking. I am landing everything I jump really well, very close to the target. My paterns are pretty good, no prob at all. I have done everything I can under the 220 up top, and i'm reading and trying everything I can find on here. (up top!) Obviously, i feel very confident underneath the 220, I do feel that it would bore me pretty quickly.

In the end, thanks all, any comments and warnings are def. apreciated. I will wait for a canopy like Courteney said, it'll come along!

What about this tho. One time a jumper (unnamed) didnt know i was renting, when he found out, he said I should have told him and he would have loaned me his rig since he wasnt jumping. It was a 170, and he knew me pretty well. Was this stupid, or not too stupid? (i didnt!)



En ja, seker mar. ek was so lanklaas in Suid Afrika dat ek nie sal weet nie. Ek sal gougou my sig. lyn verander! Dis so lekker om so moerse baie SAers hierso raak te loop!

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[ianmdrennan 2]

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know about S turns, and use them.

Really, when? Unless it's to avoid something it's probably one of the most inconsiderate things to do to other pilots on landing. A far better approach is to modify the altitudes of your flight pattern.

Otherwise what you're describing sounds pretty good although you could still get better with accuracy (we all could).

Blue skies
Ian

ps: Ek dink jou sig lyn is goet genoeg. En ja, my afrikaans is baie, baie swak

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Courteney 0]

Well, I'm from Namibia so we don't have a huge Skydiving population but pretty up to date. We train our students to use S-turns when an over shoot is likely but obviously we don't have as much traffic as in the states...and even then we encourage height seperation. Low man has right of way.
But sure if there's traffic, keep your eyes open.

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!

[GravityGirl 0]

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I have always had on target landings,

So what you are saying is that you have NO experience with an offsite landing.

You have been jumping a bigger canopy with lots of decision time and lots of forgiveness.

Downsizing is about more than the flare at the end. It about negotiating your landing pattern and making decisions in less time. (Smaller canopies desend quicker). You must be able to do this WITHOUT "S" turns and WITHOUT holding brakes. These are good training wheels, but they are not appropriate as you begin to share the landing pattern with more experienced jumpers.

If someone fast than you is coming in behind you, an "S" turn in front of him/her is quite dangerous as well as inconsiderate.

I would probably say, get a gently used 210. Put enough jumps on it, then sell it for very close to what you bought it for.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Kris 0]

S-turns on final are generally considered to be bad form. It throws everyone off as now there is someone with an unpredictable approach in the pattern.

Whether someone is a newbie or a swoop god, the best piece of advice I have ever heard was "Never let your canopy take you somewhere your mind hasn't been to at least several minutes before."

Translation: use a pattern, hone your accuracy, increase your awareness. By doing so one is not only making themselve safer by becoming a pilot rather than a passenger. Also, they're being considerate, and hopefully predictable, to others.

Jumping a Stiletto at even a mere 1.38:1, I still think about my pattern on the ride up based upon where the exits are happening at my DZ. Of course patterns are a constantly varying thing based upon current conditions, but planning ahead never hurts.

Edited for spelling

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[bertusgeert 1]

Good point! The pattern is very important. The descent rate is something I will keep in mind.

So maybe a gentle use of risers on high final is safer than S turns? Right or Wrong?

I like to play under canopy quite a bit and usually cut a little freefall time to get more canopy time, I open at 4,500 to 5,000. This seperates me from the more experienced folks a bit. As I get better I will work on sharing the airspace.

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[Mixoligist 0]

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(even the guys at Deland said I'm overdue to use a smaller canopy). See my prob?

So any advice? I weigh 175.


I don't know whom the "guys at Deland" are that told you that but IMHO you are NOT "overdue" to downsize.

You are due for a canopy course however

Go slow bro...slow is fast

Bob

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Better you than me
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[GravityGirl 0]

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So maybe a gentle use of risers on high final is safer than S turns? Right or Wrong?

In my opinion, using front risers for accuracy is not the best approach.

Perhaps try flying a wider pattern. This give you more margin for error and/or fine tuning. The wider pattern allows you to turn in earlier or later depending on what you need.

Of course keep in mind not to get too far downwind of your target. Particularly if it is windy and/or if there is an obsticle between you and your target.

Keep in mind what you are getting here are opinions. Mine are based on teaching AFF for 8 years and lots and lots of trial and error!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[hkf 0]

It's never to early for education, find a canopy course at one of the bigger DZ's, let them know your aspirations, and they will teach you the safest way to reach your goals.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I
I want to know a ballpark for how many jumps I need to start using front risers to not overshoot my target. (not to pick up speed to swoop, but just for acc.)

Using brakes is a better idea because you can come in steeper, hold the angle longer, and won't be going as fast. While I have canopies that I wouldn't want to start flaring from deep brakes, they all (Samurai 105 to Fox 245) sink nicely on approach.

Flying a longer base leg will give you more room to adjust your height to where you want to be on final, and gives you more room to round off the corners if you're going to be short.

[kaerock 1]

Absolutly!
The can of worms opened from this topic is ginormous :>. Taking a canopy control course is the best way to progress short of having a mentor at the local DZ that will offer to do training. You will find severe limitations trying to get help here on it since everyone will offer up bits and pieces of info that are just way too disjointed for anyone to make any real headway. This is a great place to tweak something in particular, not to gather all of the fundamentals you need.

-Rory

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It's never to early for education, find a canopy course at one of the bigger DZ's, let them know your aspirations, and they will teach you the safest way to reach your goals.

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[ianmdrennan 2]

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This is a great place to tweak something in particular, not to gather all of the fundamentals you need.

Ya know that's a great way of putting it. I think I'm gonna stick that little sentence in my bag of one liners

I think there are some fundamentals that can be learned here, but they are BETTER learned in person when taught by qualified people.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bertusgeert 1]

Cool then. I will see if I can get on a course sometime soon, and learn what I can from the experienced ppl. I'll stay away from those risers, and concentrate on improving my pattern.

No sense in falling to earth at 120mph, opening fully working parachute to stop you from bouncing, and then using that parachute to go ahead and smack yourself into the ground anyhow!

Thanks!

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As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[kaerock 1]

Ya mon.
Nothing beats sitting down with someone that will go over ALL the basics and round out all the corners. Having prepared material generally means you won't leave any gaps, unfortunately, no one really has anything complete enough here. The best thing I've seen so far is Brian Germain's book (1st edition), it's not free, but it's something that is worth paying for.


-Rory

Quote

Quote

This is a great place to tweak something in particular, not to gather all of the fundamentals you need.

Ya know that's a great way of putting it. I think I'm gonna stick that little sentence in my bag of one liners

I think there are some fundamentals that can be learned here, but they are BETTER learned in person when taught by qualified people.

Blue ones,
Ian

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[Raistlin 0]

Might I be so bold (no, really :p) as to ask if someone could point me to a video of a model front riser landing, preferrably on a largish canopy? :)

[tcnelson 1]

if you think you're proficient, go for it. i started quarter front riser turns at about 60 jumps and my first canopy was/is a sabre2 170 at wing load 1.25 at about 25 jumps. i've had no probs in 3 years (love the sabre2 btw). keep your head and think analytically; if it scares you too much, don't do it or do it high!

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[jeiber 0]

Hmmm. I've only got a little over 300 jumps, but I think I'm ready for a Velocity...

Confidence is a good thing, but the wisdom to listen to experience will get you much farther... and it'll probably keep you alive longer.

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[tcnelson 1]

one can only learn this material by doing. i don't recommend carelessness, but timidness is just as bad.

btw, i think you need a million jumps before trying a velocity, it's SCAAARY man....

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[ianmdrennan 2]

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one can only learn this material by doing.

Yep, however there is a difference between doing the material you SHOULD be doing, vs the material you WANT to do. Learn to walk before you run.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[tcnelson 1]

ok, insert cliche here...you do what you do and i'll do what i do. have a good one.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329