Do we do enough to deter incidents?

[diablopilot 2]

Do we as a skydiving comunity do enough to deter incidents and accidents?

Younger skydivers are lured in buy the glamor of swooping, and high performance landings, but are we doing a good enough job showing the results of a botched one?

Have we shown the gore, and pain, and suffering of those injured, or that of those who have lost someone. I mean being graphic!?

When someone gets hurt, the ambulance shows up and carts them off to the hospital, never to be seen at the DZ again unless they are well again.

Damnit, I want gory pictures to show people. I want stories and personal recounting to show the pain of being permanently paralyzed, or the agony of seing someone die.

We need to do more.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[parachutist 2]

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Have we shown the gore, and pain, and suffering of those injured, or that of those who have lost someone. I mean being graphic!?

I think you're right... graphic depictions of reality could make some people more aware of their fragility. One guy had an idea similar to yours after his own injury:
http://www.deadmike.com/
He is very open about what he remembers about the incident, and about what a long road recovery has been.

Chris

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

This guy has a good sense of humor for what he's been through. I just read "skydiving ate my balls" and I laughed my ass off up to the day at wffc... then after that, he was still in good humor.

I definitely think we see lotsa glam, not much gore. It couldn't hurt to show more gore because it would get people out of it who aren't in it.. .if that makes sense. (and it does, if you read it as I meant it to be written, but it is difficult to word).

Angela.

[bobsled92 0]

What I keep in my head:
The gore side of being at WFFC 2002 at the pond and a friend of mine leave his body imprint,on the ground his face not recognized by me (friend=12yrs) blood on us and fumur stinking into grass and thru clothes. 16 months, most of Hospital re-admits to ICU. Hit so hard I felt it and thought a car hit a low wing plane.
Spent time crying in Church, "let him live" & "That could have been me" all for: why , why, why?
I learned that it's not "My life" when I make a decision that has such an effect on those around me and in my life.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Do we as a skydiving comunity do enough to deter incidents and accidents?

What, specifically, do skydivers do to deter incidents?

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showing the results of a botched one

I don't think images from a botched hook turn will deter very many people. They think it won't happen to them.

Derek

[cloud9 0]

You know way back in the 30's a man named Will Rogers said something like this:

Some men learn from reading.
Some men will learn from observation
and some men will just have to piss on the electric fence themselves

I don't think much has changed in the 60 plus years since then.

[diablopilot 2]

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What, specifically, do skydivers do to deter incidents?

Some skydives teach, other ridicule, and others turn their backs and pretend not to care.

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I don't think images from a botched hook turn will deter very many people. They think it won't happen to them.

There will be that percentage. However I still think the reality is sugar coated with glamor. If you can use these images and stories from those who have brocken themselves, to make olny 10% more receptive to learning, I think it's worth it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[davelepka 4]

***I don't think images from a botched hook turn will deter very many people. They think it won't happen to them.

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Sadly, I have to agree with you on this one.

A better plan might be to stress the time, training and technique needed to perform a good swoop. People see and want to emulate the good swoops, so I think the idea is make to 'cool' to seek proper training and instruction.

Jumpers in general need to start building more importance into canopy training in general. Too many see it as not important, and they'll just 'figure it out' with time. This may have been adequate ten years ago, with ten year old equipment, but things have changed. While it may not represent an immediate fix, a shift in the 'culture' of skydiving today, will lay the ground work for a safer tomorrow.

Experienced jumpers and swoopers need to start stressing the absolute need for additonal canopy training for all new jumpers. Furthermore, pass on the information needed to make sound choices in canopy selection (every DZ has one guy who jumps at a reasonable W/L and gets great swoops from his canopy, reference that guy when newbies are saying 'smaller, smaller, smaller'). Take a newbie under your swooping wing. Keep him in check with the promise of great swooping when he is ready, stressing the basics untill that time. Report uncooperative jumpers to the S&TA. This season has shown they are a great danger to others, as well as themselves.

Skydivers are a product of thier environment. If there was a DZ on the island of Strato-land, where the only canopies were big 7-cells, they're canopy control problems would be different that the rest of the world and probably less bloody. While not everyone can live on Strato-land (thank god) by instilling the right ideas into new jumpers today, they in turn will pass those values on to the next generation, and so on.

[PhreeZone 15]

Not even a few threads away from this one is a thread showing a swoop under a bridge. While this video is very cool in its own way, a lot of jumpers get the wrong impresssion by watching things like this. If people could see this swoop then right after it the video of the guy flying into the hanger at WFFC and hitting the wall, I think that it might be a little eye opening.

Every one thinks that they are not going to get hurt until it happens to them. But a collection of injury tapes and interviews afterwards might not be a bad thing to show to up and coming 100 jump wonders that want to downsize rapidly to be the next jumper on the swoop tours.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skreamer 1]

You mean something like the Ranch's "Wall of Pain". Excellent idea (even better if it has sound effects).

BTW I head the Ranch got rid of the famous "Wall", hope this isn't true - anybody confirm?

Will

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Some skydives teach, other ridicule, and others turn their backs and pretend not to care.

Absolutely. The problem is, as you pointed out, this system doesn't work. A change is needed.

Education is the key, which is the point of your post, I think. To educate newer jumpers on the risks of high performance landings. We need to make sure the teaching is standardized and correct. Teaching the wrong thing(s) is worse than not teaching at all.

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There will be that percentage. However I still think the reality is sugar coated with glamor. If you can use these images and stories from those who have brocken themselves, to make olny 10% more receptive to learning, I think it's worth it.

Good point. It won't fix everything, but it would make a difference.

I don't think a single change will make a big difference. It will.would take a lot of work to make the changes that are required to make a real difference. I don't see these changes on the horizon.

Derek

[rigging65 0]

The problem with pictures and stories is that you have to imagine the screaming, the blood, the confusion, the pain and the silence that goes along with it. Now, that's not too hard to do once you've been to a few of these, but it's nearly impossible if you haven't.

You want people to be aware? They need to see the carnage for themselves. Short of that, you're never going to convince folks it can happen to them, and how bad it really is.

Unfortunately, if you hang around the sport long enough, you will have the opportunity to see the carnage first hand...sigh...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[freeflydrew 0]

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BTW I head the Ranch got rid of the famous "Wall", hope this isn't true - anybody confirm?

Will

Hi Will
The wall (pictures) were taken down, and then, after a few weeks or months, they returned. The great hall of the Ranch is once again covered with picturesof all sorts of things, including broken legs, neck braces, and swollen testes.

Still people make mistakes and get injured.

-Drew

[quade 4]

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Do we as a skydiving comunity do enough to deter incidents and accidents?

Younger skydivers are lured in buy the glamor of swooping, and high performance landings, but are we doing a good enough job showing the results of a botched one?

So, when folks are writhing in pain, be sure to tell them to smile for the camera.

I dunno. I kinda think it's tacky to take photos of fatals.

I think a -much- better idea would be to start calling them what they are FATALS (and quadriplegics, broken femurs, ect.).

Why do we insist on calling them incidents anyway? It's just a euphemisim so that we don't scare the newbies (and tandems and AFFs), but isn't that what we -should- be doing?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[diablopilot 2]

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So, when folks are writhing in pain, be sure to tell them to smile for the camera.

I always do. Besides you can easily photoshop a grimace of pain into a smile.

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I dunno. I kinda think it's tacky to take photos of fatals.

This thread has naturaly focused on the visuals, and the fatalities, but those are the easy ones. I'd like it is every young jumpre considering high performance canopies had to listen to 1st person recountings from people who have fucked themselves up. They should have to listen to someone who has broken their pelvis and has suffered through the pain, and embarisment of not being able to wipe your own ass. Listen to Dan Fairchild about what it's like to never walk again. Listen to someone who's burried a friend, or whached their death rattle in the landing area. That sort of thing.

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I think a -much- better idea would be to start calling them what they are FATALS (and quadriplegics, broken femurs, ect.).

Why do we insist on calling them incidents anyway? It's just a euphemisim so that we don't scare the newbies (and tandems and AFFs), but isn't that what we -should- be doing?

Too true. We sugar coat reality rather than deal with it's harshness.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[VectorBoy 0]

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Damnit, I want gory pictures to show people. I want stories and personal recounting to show the pain of being permanently paralyzed, or the agony of seing someone die.

We need to do more.

Do we stand a chance somehow, in a sick way, of glorifying the scars as right of passage. As in the fact that the majority of pro bull riders have titainium in their bodies, its a fact, its excepted... Now should it be expected?
" Welcome to the botched swoop brotherhood. Here is the pin for your leg, some Ice for your ass. You will get your T shirt and membership card when you get out of ICU in a few months."

This is also the case for Moto-cross riders. Some motor sports and many dangerous stadium sports. The spectaters don't mind a little carnage. You have to convince an up and coming jumper that he is not a spectator and carnage is not acceptable!

[Hooknswoop 19]

I see a very comparable situation between new drivers and new canopy pilots. New drivers have seen a lot of vehicle accidents, on the news, in person, etc. They have been shown the consequences of driving like an idiot. They still drive like idiots and get into accidents.

Education, for drivers and canopy pilots is important. It is also severely lacking for both drivers and canopy pilots. There are schools for both that are not mandatory, but people can pay to attend. Not everyone that should does, in fact very few that should do. Unfortunately, education is not the fix-all.

From: Young Drivers: The High Risk Years

"Unfortunately," Dr. Simpson added, "the problem is that so many crashes involve their attitude, not their skills."

“Dr. Simpson points out that what is needed is some kind of system that allows teens accessibility and mobility, but that at the same time gives them an opportunity to gain much-needed experience under conditions of 'controlled risk.' This concept is known as 'graduated licensing.'”

“Peer pressure can, and usually does, override adult rules concerning issues such as obeying the speed limit or using turn signals.”

“With such serious statistics, parents want to know what they can do to minimize the risks that come with teenage driving. Consider these suggestions:”

“Be sure teenagers get plenty of supervised driving even after getting their licenses.”

“Ease teens into more challenging situations, such as highways and mountainous roads, or wet, snowy and icy conditions.“

“Make sure teens stay out of unsafe cars, especially small cars and high performance cars.“

From: Graduated Licensing for Teen Drivers

“Driving is a complicated skill to learn; it takes time and practice.”

“Sometimes young drivers lack driving experience to safely react to traffic situations.”

“Drivers in this age group also commonly engage in more risk-taking behaviors, exposing themselves to dangerous situations on the road.”

The concept is to break the driver’s license down into stages:

“Stage 1: Learner's Permit”
“Stage 2: Intermediate or Provisional License”
“Stage 3: Full License”

http://www.usaweekend.com/99_issues/990905/990905drivers.html is another good reference.

Showing newer drivers pictures of vehicle accidents won’t stop very many from driving poorly. Education would help a lot, but without experience it doesn’t do much. If they don’t use that training, it doesn’t help at all.

Pictures/video/meeting jumpers that have had an incident and education will all help, but will not make a big difference

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Do we stand a chance somehow, in a sick way, of glorifying the scars as right of passage. As in the fact that the majority of pro bull riders have titainium in their bodies, its a fact, its excepted... Now should it be expected?
" Welcome to the botched swoop brotherhood. Here is the pin for your leg, some Ice for your ass. You will get your T shirt and membership card when you get out of ICU in a few months."

This is also the case for Moto-cross riders. Some motor sports and many dangerous stadium sports. The spectaters don't mind a little carnage. You have to convince an up and coming jumper that he is not a spectator and carnage is not acceptable!

Exactly. I have seen jumpers proudly showing off their X-rays after coming back to the DZ after an incident.

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

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Do we stand a chance somehow, in a sick way, of glorifying the scars as right of passage.

So sudenly the answer is concealment?

The only reason something like that becomes a "glorious rite of passage" is because people are not having their nose rubbed in the reality of the pain, suffering, embarisment, humility, helplessnes, and expence of a long term hospital stay.

My mother has been an E.R. nurse for 30 years. Spend an evening in and E.R. and I promise you'll think again about driving under the influence. THAT'S the kind of thing I'm after here.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So sudenly the answer is concealment?

No, of course not, for pictures, etc to have the effect desired, they must be presented in a "having their nose rubbed in the reality of the pain, suffering, embarisment, humility, helplessnes, and expence of a long term hospital stay" way.

They can't be presented in a "Dude, check out what I did to my leg. Cool, heh?" way or the "Chicks dig scars." way.

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

Ah-ha!

See great minds do think alike!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[VectorBoy 0]

The only reason something like that becomes a "glorious rite of passage" is because people are not having their nose rubbed in the reality of the pain, suffering, embarisment, humility, helplessnes, and expence of a long term hospital stay.

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No! and the reason I bring it up was a few years back after I very badly botched a landing a peer that saw the whole thing said exactly that to me ( without the pin, ice, t-shirt and card part). Meanwhile I, looking like a prison gang rape victim, in shock, gear a total mess, very much unhurt and unbroken but in enough pain to be beyond pride just said " I wasn't swooping".

That was his attitude not mine, welcome to the pain. I botched a completely low performance landing not a swoop. And don't think that everyone I know on the DZ didn't rub my nose in it! I deserved it and took my lumps graciously. People that I thought knew me and would know I wouldn't be doing that. I couldn't convince them otherwise.

I can't speak for where you use to jump but if you bang yourself up here JP, others will turn a cold shoulder to you. You ask anyone that has busted themselves up in the last couple of years buddy. In a couple of cases this treatment was enough to squelch out that friendly fuzzy skydive vibe that emits from the DZ, and these people don't jump anymore as a result. They found out who their friends were. You can add this to the list of reasons that some people leave the sport after an accident, even though they really could still be jumping. Its just not as friendly anymore when everyone thinks your a dick. Even some of the previously broken dicks will turn and black list the next guy down.

Don't have any delusions JP if you frap-in, you are going to see a change in your personal world of skydiving friends.

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[diablopilot 2]

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Don't have any delusions JP if you frap-in, you are going to see a change in your personal world of skydiving friends.

# 1) I have not found things to be that way in my experience.

# 2) What does the above have to do with educating younger jumpers?

Just about every DZ has their share of good and bad people. Perhapse you experienced the bad where ever you were at the time.

I have taken my falls, spills, and tumble in front of my peers, and they in front of me. There is good natured ribbing to be sure, but those that I call friends are no matter what I do. Everyone has a bad landing at some time or another. Those that get ostrisized, or seem to be cut out are often the "know-it-alls" and cocky individuals, who can't take repeated hints.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[VectorBoy 0]

Just about every DZ has their share of good and bad people. Perhapse you experienced the bad where ever you were at the time.

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This wasn't my bad experience it was someone else. To them the DZ thing was a very social scene and the flavor changed afterwards.

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[crazy 0]

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Do we as a skydiving comunity do enough to deter incidents and accidents?

Besides that "derterment" by itself sucks, specially to control a hobby, the overall ratio "perceived risk"/"actual risk" in skydiving already seems quite high compared to other activities, for instance driving and SCUBA diving. Hence i don't see any reason to increase the fear factor (and the stream of related irrational behaviors).

Furthermore, your question implies that doing more is doing better, which is quite a dangerous path when you cope with safety issues. Doing the right thing, and nothing else, is usually much more productive.

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Have we shown the gore, and pain, and suffering of those injured, or that of those who have lost someone. I mean being graphic!?

Now, this is really sick. I don't want to see gory pictures and footages. Most people i know don't want to watch such crap. I don't see why it would deter incidents and accidents; i can even imagine a few thrill seekers who would find some sort of perverse inducement there.
I do skydiving for fun, not to watch gross, offensive, disgusting, and revolting material (for this, internet is much better).

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Skydive Asia