Blame Game

[Twizz 0]

If a jumper gets hurt or killed doing a canopy swoop, where should the blame be placed for that jumpers injuries? What if it happens at a swoop meet? If it's a student should the instructors be at fault for not teaching the info. corretly? Should jumpers friends be at blame for not "keeping" friends from jumping wrong canopies? Should it be others in the traffic pattern that were not seen until too late? Maybe the wind should be blamed? How about the swoopers parents, for not teaching them to stay away from such dangerous toys? Or maybe the Lawyers are to blame, since they are always the ones who are pointing the finger, trying to place the blame.
Choose multiple answers......

[quade 3]

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Choose multiple answers......

While a lot of the folks you've mentioned (lawyers, family, friends) might choose multiple answers, skydivers really only need one -- it's the jumper's fault pure and simple.

Nobody holds a gun to anybody's head and tells them to swoop.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rgoper 0]

the jumper should always assume liability for themself. however in an ever litigious society this can and may change from time to time, ya never know any more. i have attended events at drop zones and just wasn't comfortable with the jump run, or jumpship and have elected not to jump, point being if there's a doubt, don't jump.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Yoshi 0]

I clicked m all since it was a very vauge question, but ultimately the jumper....
-yoshi

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this space for rent.

[chopchop 0]

Obviously the jumper... no one else pulled that riser or toggle for him / her.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[base570 1]

This question kinda hits home for me right now since I'm dealing with this very scenario. A friend of mine recently died attempting to swoop his canopy. While a lot of factors came into play during his flight, I believe that he is ultimately to blame for his death. He was the only one with control of his canopy and his actions. He was the one that made the decision to turn when he did, no one else did. When events like this happen people like to place blame for the loss, they are angry and hurting and want someone to "pay" for the unfortunate incidents that happen. This is exactly what we don't need. Society needs to stop looking for a scapegoat for everything and realize that each individual controls their own actions, and ultimatelty their own fate.
jason

[Steel 0]

I chose the Jumper but its important to not leave it at that. Yes the jumper should assume all responsibility but the beauty of assuming all responsiblity is the freedom of choice. What he swoops and how he swoops it should be his choice and his choice alone, specially if he makes it a point to land in an area clear of any other jumpers or spectators.
When offering up unrequested advice chances are you are just annoying the person you supposedly care about. If you really cared about him you would realize that he is not going to listen to you, one way or the other. All you are doing is annoying him, breaking his concentration and by that increasing his chances of messing up.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[PhreeZone 15]

So you really believe that telling someone that they are flying beyond their skill makes them more likely to screw up since they are now distracted?

Thats odd since everytime someone tells me something about my flying I take it and think about it, then its not odd to hear their voice running through my head on in the air reminding me of the things that I was doing wrong before so I don't do them again.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[aneblett 0]

I still remember a portion in one of our PIMS that stresses that each jumper is ultimately responsible for his/her safety...

the scenario illustrated does nothing to change that.

Age

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[aneblett 0]

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When offering up unrequested advice chances are you are just annoying the person you supposedly care about. If you really cared about him you would realize that he is not going to listen to you, one way or the other.

Get smarter friends who are humble enough to respect the advice of others that may know more. Somebody telling them something that they haven't thought through all the way may save their life.

Though unrequested advice can be annoying I think it is important to at least listen. What you do with it afterwards is up to you.

Age

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[Steel 0]

So you really believe that telling someone that they are flying beyond their skill makes them more likely to screw up since they are now distracted?
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Yes! But that doesn't mean never to suggest that to somebody if you think you have a valid case and your skill level is such that you might have a clue what your talking about. If the guy your speaking to have 3-5 times as many jumps as you, has been jumping longer, can swoop further, faster and more accurate than you, then your advice it extremely unwelcome and useless. If for some you happen to have more jumps but you have never done what it is your knocking then its like a professional bass player down talking to an amateur guitarist. In anycase it becomes pretty obvious after a while when the person has no intention of listening to your advice. At this point your advice can have nothing other than a negative effect.


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Thats odd since everytime someone tells me something about my flying I take it and think about it, then its not odd to hear their voice running through my head on in the air reminding me of the things that I was doing wrong before so I don't do them again.
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Yeah right! How many jumps do you have? Just under 600? What do you do? Wingsuit flying? Suppose you have 300 wingsuit jumps and some yahoo who had 3000 jumps but only three on a wingsuit came up to you and started telling you that your entire approach was incorrect. Yeah your going to be kewl about it, right? Maybe if it was just one dipshit? But if but if it was consistent that is people who had never even strapped on a wingsuit constantly were offering up unrequested advice. Now I am sorry I just don't believe it wouldn't annoy you. And yes it would increase you chances of screwing up specially if what you were doing involved concentration.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]If the guy your speaking to have 3-5 times as many jumps as you, has been jumping longer, can swoop further, faster and more accurate than you, then your advice it extremely unwelcome and useless. If for some you happen to have more jumps but you have never done what it is your knocking then its like a professional bass player down talking to an amateur guitarist. In anycase it becomes pretty obvious after a while when the person has no intention of listening to your advice. At this point your advice can have nothing other than a negative effect. [/QUOTE]

Sorry to interject, but this makes no sense. To think that a jumper with less jump numbers has nothing valid to say to you is extremely cocky. I hope that cockiness doesn't get you killed someday.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[AggieDave 6]

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To think that a jumper with less jump numbers has nothing valid to say to you is extremely cocky

There was a discussion about this a while back...

You know, there's a guy on my DZ that I'm getting RW coaching from. I have over twice as many jumps as he does, BUT he's also one of the best RW guys on the DZ. You know why? He's been to 2 airspeed tunnel camps, he's been through Skydive U and he's now a Skydive U coach.

The point is he put the time, money and energy into learning something very good and very early in his jumping career. I have a LOT to learn from this guy.

Jump numbers don't always give a good indication of knowledge or ability.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Steel 0]

Sorry to interject, but this makes no sense. To think that a jumper with less jump numbers has nothing valid to say to you is extremely cocky. I hope that cockiness doesn't get you killed someday.
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ordinarily I might say read my entire post because there was more than jump numbers referenced there. But in this case I will just say read what you quoted because even that has more than jump numbers mentioned. And even that cites a situation where more jump numbers is not enough.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[rgoper 0]

just a true story:

at about 300 jumps in, i was going to transition from a 170^2 canopy to a 120^2 canopy, yeah, i know 50^2 less canopy. a highly experienced canopy pilot, AFF, TM, pilot, friend and mentor i contacted cared enough about me to tell me there was no way in hell i could handle the canopy. now, a couple hundred jumps later, although i've never had an accident i'll never know if i could have handled the 2.1:1 wing load, and i don't care. what i do know is i'm thankful the young man cared enough about me to stop me from making an assinine decision which could have had a very different impact on my sky diving. thanks, you know who you are.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Steel 0]

at about 300 jumps in, i was going to transition from a 170^2 canopy to a 120^2 canopy, yeah, i know 50^2 less canopy.
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That is a 29% downsize. I don't know a nice way to say that this just sounds stupid at any level. I.E. that is even if you had 3000 jumps to make that kind of a transition would not make any sense.


a highly experienced canopy pilot, AFF, TM, pilot, friend and mentor i contacted cared enough about me to tell me there was no way in hell i could handle the canopy. now, a couple hundred jumps later, although i've never had an accident i'll never know if i could have handled the 2.1:1 wing load, and i don't care.
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I guess if you really needed somebody to make you see the light and it worked, then great! You are lucky in those respects. But obviously your mind wasn't really made up and the fact that you still question whether you may or may not have gotten away with it shows that you still need to learn some more about canopy flight. Your situation is not at all what I am concerned with. I am concerned with somebody who wants to make are reasonable downsize (10-12%) and is sure about what he is doing. Somebody whose opinion will not be swayed by anybody because he knows what he intends to do and is not trying to do something he knows nothing about.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[rgoper 0]

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even if you had 3000 jumps to make that kind of a transition would not make any sense.

i'm a son-of-a bytch then i guess! i downsized 50^2 on my 3rd AFP jump. according to you i shouldn't even be alive i guess? i could still downsize the 50^2 of canopy and i'm not afraid to downsize that much canopy, there are a lot of sky divers flying way higher wing loads than that would provide me, i just am not inclined to do it anymore.

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But obviously your mind wasn't really made up

the canopy was ordered.

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and the fact that you still question whether you may or may not have gotten away with it shows that you still need to learn some more about canopy flight.

we should all always be on the inclination of the learning curve in the many facets of canopy flight and control. jump numbers and ratings don't mean jack.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Steel 0]

i'm a son-of-a bytch then i guess! i downsized 50^2 on my 3rd AFP jump. according to you i shouldn't even be alive i guess? i could still downsize the 50^2 of canopy and i'm not afraid to downsize that much canopy, there are a lot of sky divers flying way higher wing loads than that would provide me, i just am not inclined to do it anymore.
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First of all lets not compare apples and oranges. The learning curve in your first 15 jumps is something totally different. I did all my students jumps on a manta 288 then jumped a 230 once and ended up buying a Robo 185 which I was jumping by my 13th jump. Students are started off on a huge canopy mostly because they have no idea how to fly and its there to cushion their bad landing for them. Once you start to understand what is going on you go toward a realistic wing. I would say my 185 was a realistic wing after student status. I certainly don't think it would have made any sense to shoot down to a 120 at any point without jumping a 170 or atleast a 150 first. The fact that other people have loaded heavier is a totally meaningless arguement to use on me since I have loaded over 4.0 pounds per square foot. I am totally aware of what could be done. But you have to learn how to do it in a survivable fashion otherwise you will never get there.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Brains 2]

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To think that a jumper with less jump numbers has nothing valid to say to you is extremely cocky

There was a discussion about this a while back...

You know, there's a guy on my DZ that I'm getting RW coaching from. I have over twice as many jumps as he does, BUT he's also one of the best RW guys on the DZ. You know why? He's been to 2 airspeed tunnel camps, he's been through Skydive U and he's now a Skydive U coach.

The point is he put the time, money and energy into learning something very good and very early in his jumping career. I have a LOT to learn from this guy.

Jump numbers don't always give a good indication of knowledge or ability.

Very, very, well said AD. I was humbled by such an individual not very long ago and it was a good lesson to be reminded about. We can learn something from everyone.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Ron 7]

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When offering up unrequested advice chances are you are just annoying the person you supposedly care
about. If you really cared about him you would realize that he is not going to listen to you, one way or the
other. All you are doing is annoying him, breaking his concentration and by that increasing his chances of
messing up.

This is such bullshit.
I can't believe you honestly think this way.

So if I care about someone I should not tell him when he is doing something stupid because it will just add to the danger?

Again BS.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[txblondie 0]

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When offering up unrequested advice chances are you are just annoying the person you supposedly care
about. If you really cared about him you would realize that he is not going to listen to you, one way or the
other. All you are doing is annoying him, breaking his concentration and by that increasing his chances of
messing up.

This is such bullshit.
I can't believe you honestly think this way.

So if I care about someone I should not tell him when he is doing something stupid because it will just add to the danger?

Again BS.

I don't think that's the point at all. But offering unsolicited advice should be handled carefully. When it is not requested, the person could take it the wrong way, and you could certainly say something that is going to piss them off enough to screw up their concentration. I don't believe advice is necessarily bad; I believe nagging or giving advice in a NEGATIVE manner is bad.

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Blondes do have more fun!

[Ron 7]

Robin...He said

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All you are doing is annoying him, breaking his concentration and by thatincreasing his
chances of
messing up.

That IS BS.

Everytime someone said I was doing something stupid...I at least LISTENED to them. Even if I didn't agree.

He is saying that by bringing up to someone that they are doing something taht you don't agree with that you are INCREASING the risk...

Thats BS.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[txblondie 0]

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Robin...He said

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All you are doing is annoying him, breaking his concentration and by thatincreasing his
chances of
messing up.

That IS BS.

Everytime someone said I was doing something stupid...I at least LISTENED to them. Even if I didn't agree.

He is saying that by bringing up to someone that they are doing something taht you don't agree with that you are INCREASING the risk...

Thats BS.

Okay, so maybe he didn't explain himself as well as he would like; I've had discussions with him on this before. What he's saying is NOT that he doesn't listen. Of course he listens; most people listen. And if someone's saying, well maybe this is the problem, why don't you try this? it's one thing. If someone is bitching and moaning in your ear constantly about "you're doing this wrong, and you're doing that wrong, and you're f-ing this up..." don't you see that it's annoying?
I've only got 8 jumps, so I'm no expert, and I get offered a lot of advice. I listen, and I apply what I feel is good, positive advice, but when someone is nagging, even I will tune them out because nagging breaks concentration. When you aren't concentrating on the task at hand, whether it be skydiving, driving, or anything, you are MUCH more likely to screw up.
For example, if I'm driving my car, and someone is nagging at me about "you should have your hands at 10 and 2" or "watch out, you shouldn't cut people off", etc...I am much less likely to be concentrating on the road and much more likely to have an accident because I'm distracted. Plus, these are things I already know, but perhaps I feel more comfortable with my hands at 9 and 3...
Do you get what I'm saying? It's not that advice is bad or wrong; it's that sometimes it's given in a manner that no one wants to listen to and serves no purpose but to break concentration.

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Blondes do have more fun!

[Ron 7]

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Okay, so maybe he didn't explain himself as well as he would like; I've had discussions with him on this before.
What he's saying is NOT that he doesn't listen. Of course he listens; most people listen. And if someone's
saying, well maybe this is the problem, why don't you try this? it's one thing. If someone is bitching and
moaning in your ear constantly about "you're doing this wrong, and you're doing that wrong, and you're f-ing
this up..." don't you see that it's annoying?

Annoying yes...Dangerous, No.

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For example, if I'm driving my car, and someone is nagging at me about "you should have your hands at 10 and
2" or "watch out, you shouldn't cut people off", etc...I am much less likely to be concentrating on the road
and much more likely to have an accident because I'm distracted.

And I would agree if I sat there with a bull horn and yelled at him WHILE he was doing something...But if I waited for you to park the car, and then said don't cut people off. It should not be a danger, and in fact it IS dangerous to cut people off.

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Plus, these are things I already know, but
perhaps I feel more comfortable with my hands at 9 and 3...

Just cause you LIKE it, does not make it safer. What if I like to pull low? Or hook so that I have to dig it out?

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Do you get what I'm saying? It's not that advice is bad or wrong; it's that sometimes it's given in a manner
that no one wants to listen to and serves no purpose but to break concentration.

I can see your first point, but then it comes as an issue of is the guy that does not want to listen have an ego that prevents him from taking advice?

But I don't see how walking up to a guy after he has landed and telling him he is doing something wrong would INCREASE his risk. It's still BS.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[txblondie 0]

And I would agree if I sat there with a bull horn and yelled at him WHILE he was doing something...But if I waited for you to park the car, and then said don't cut people off. It should not be a danger, and in fact it IS dangerous to cut people off.
Just cause you LIKE it, does not make it safer. What if I like to pull low? Or hook so that I have to dig it out?
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I'm not saying that it's safe; what I am saying is that it could still piss someone off to give unsolicited advice. Safe? It depends on the individual. Perhaps they already know that they've done something that was wrong and they don't want to hear it again. Perhaps it's like pouring salt in an open wound.

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I can see your first point, but then it comes as an issue of is the guy that does not want to listen have an ego that prevents him from taking advice?

But I don't see how walking up to a guy after he has landed and telling him he is doing something wrong would INCREASE his risk. It's still BS.

Ron