Moving towards a Cobalt

[kansasskydiver 0]

I jumped my first semi-eliptical canopy today and had some questions about canopy progressions. I have 300+ jumps, 150 or so on a sabre 170 wing 1.5/1. I'd like to start moving into a different canopy selection and i've grown attached to cobalts. I demoed a sabre2 and really didn't like it because of the cross stear. Today i jumped a Diablo 170 and enjoyed the heck out of it, nice openings, but on landing i kinda got cut off and found myself really struggling to control the canopy until i was ready to flare, then it was like BAM it had it undercontrol and was swooping as normal.

My question is, by August or so i'd like to move myself into a cobalt 150, but my main concern is the cross stearing. Can anyone who has flown one, or owns one please give me their feedback about the cross stearing. I know eliptical canopies will do so, but to what degree do cobalts do so>?

thanks

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[Jimbo 0]

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My question is, by August or so i'd like to move myself into a cobalt 150, but my main concern is the cross stearing. Can anyone who has flown one, or owns one please give me their feedback about the cross stearing. I know eliptical canopies will do so, but to what degree do cobalts do so>?

If you've never flown one before what makes you think you want to move yourself into one?

The best way to get the answers you're looking for is to demo, demo, and demo some more. Be sure to try out the Cobalt, the Crossfire 2, the new Vision from Aerodyne, and every other elliptical and even semi-elliptical canopy on the market. Fly everything you can and buy what's right for you.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Well any elliptical will "cross steer". A lot of the oversteer a pilot feels in due to shifting in the harness. This shifting can either exagerate or dull the oversteer. At 1.5 to 1 you should be able to easily do some harness turns which you can use to counteract the over steer on any canopy.

Here's the blurb from the Velocity manual:

Quote

Oversteer is the tendency for some
canopies to continue to turn after neutralizing the toggles, rather than immediately stopping on
heading. The degree of oversteer a jumper feels is heavily influenced by any intentional (or
unintentional) weight shifting during the turns. Some people allow themselves to get slung to the
outside of a turn, and they feel very little oversteer. Others lean into the turn, but don’t lean out
during roll out, and they will feel a lot of oversteer. Most people who have been flying highly
elliptical canopies for a while use harness movements to roll both into and out of a turn, in
conjunction with toggles. Stopping turns using a little opposite harness movement alone works
really well on the Velocity, for all but the fastest of turns.

Hope this helps. Be safe and take it slow.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kansasskydiver 0]

the reason i'm looking into the cobalt is because i have heard a lot of good things about the openings, performance and at the same time the cobalt is the tamer of the beasts. I appreciate the adivce both have given and yes i do plan on taking it slow, that's why i demoed a sabre 2, then today the diablo and i'm planning on jumping many many more times on semi before i even consider a cobalt.

in regards to the harness position, even with my sabre i can control the turns using my weight in the harness, of course not as much as the diable today. one thing i notice though is, when i turn with the sabre, i do balance myself out, ie roll in to the turn to prevent myself from twisting up, but i probably don't roll myself out as the sabre always returns back to normal. So thank you for posting that from the manuel, i've never tried rolling out of the turn. I know it won't show on the sabre, but i can get the practice i need on it.

Thanks again guys and don't worry i'm taking it slow, i've seen too many people get hurt under good canopies just like everyone else, that's why i'm asking questions first and slowly getting into a different canopy

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[AggieDave 6]

Besure to demo some of the tried and trues, like a Stiletto. In my experience, its pretty hard to go wrong with a PD canopy. Also, when you think you're ready for it, try a Crossfire2. Companies have demos for reasons, take advantage of that!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ianmdrennan 2]

No worries, glad you got something good out of the post. I wish I could give you more useful info on the cobalt, but I've never jumped one (Something I plan to change as soon as someone at the dz gets one). You may want to private message, or address them in the topic header, Ramon(Sponsored now by them I believe) or CobaltDan (Works for Altair) for Cobalt specific questions.

Have fun.

Blue skies and safe swoops,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

One other thing. Few, if any, of us here know you or your flying ablilities. A wingloading of 1.5 is pretty good and you haven't made it clear what is pressing you to downsize? I'd venture a guess there's still plenty fun to be had @ 1.5 for a couple hundred jumps still with plenty of time to load it up higher.

Just curious on whats motivating you to go smaller.

Blue skies and safe swoops
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kansasskydiver 0]

well i don't so much mind not going smaller, but from what i read and was informed, for me to have the same glide ratio a cobalt 150 is compared to the sabre 170. now i'm not saying i want to downsize, that is was was suggested to me. My reasoning behind getting a new canopy is a) it's a sabre, it's old the technology is old and it doesn't fly as i would want it to b) it does and can smack me, i was just reminded of that this weekend c) i would like to progress into something that will let me improve my knowledge of flying a wing

i'm not looking to downsize now, it would be mid summer or end of summer. by then i will have another 100-150 jumps for sure, that would put be around 450 or so and 300-350 on my sabre 170. I know and realize still that there is a lot to be learned from my sabre, i'm very careful even flying it because i know a 1.5 is a high wing is not forgiving when not flown correctly. i'm at work, i've gotta run really quick, i'll finish my post later

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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i'm not looking to downsize now, it would be mid summer or end of summer.

I'm sure you'll take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt. But I don't think downsizing in the middle of the summer is the smartest thing to do. The reason I say this is that we're the most vunerable to the effects of density altitude during those hot summer days. Now I'm not sure what altitude you jump at in Kansas (I'm sure it's above sea level), but for myself and my fellow skydivers here in Colorado, jumping on a really hot summer day in June/July/August could be equivelant to jumping at 10000 feet MSL. So I'd like to think that downsizing in the fall, winter or spring is a better choice than downsizing during the hot summer months. Just my two cents ... let the flamming begin.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey Kansas,

Looks like you're thinking this through as much as possible, which is a great start. I can totally understand you wanting to get something that opens nicely, or at least better than the sabre, which most canopies do nowdays anyway...so the question becomes which is the most appropriate for yourself.

Well as far as type goes, well that just depends on what you're looking for. You aren't necessarily tied in to ellipticals for good openings.

My wife as a sabre2 and is EXTREMELY happy with it..great openings, awesome flare/swoop and very very little oversteer.
The spectre is another great opener, but I'm assuming you're looking for something with a better swoop.

On the elliptical side I hear nothing but good things about the Crossfire2 (I only jumped the CF1 and was impressed with it), and the stiletto is still a winner, although not competative IMHO with the newer canopies for swooping distance, but still a kick ass canopy.
Also a cheaper alternative is the Heatwave. Nice openings, spectacular on the toggles and riser pressure but not as long a swoop although I hear the H-mod does wonders to make this a longer diving canopy.

My advise would be to come up with a list of "must haves" then demo as many canopies as you can (most companies have great demo programs and demo the size you plan to buy) and cross the ones off the list that you didn't like.

That leaves you with size and the everpresent wingloading debate. Once again that's up to you and the knowledgable swoopers at your local dz to help you with. If you're loading a 170 @ 1.5 then I calculate you at 255 out the door (correct me if I'm wrong). With that exit weight a 150 puts you @ 1.7 which is pretty highly loaded. My advice (and I tend to be conservative) would be to stick to the 170 and go for something like the Crossfire2(or equivalent), or at least a canopy with a good dive arc, you'll probably outswoop the majority of the jumpers at the local dz with that loading and wing size about you're head if done correctly. You can always load up that badboy later.

Either way, the beauty of the sport is that you can make the decision that is best for yourself.

Quick note to address point c. The principals of flight remain the same regardless of the size of your wing. If you're seriously interested in improving your knowledge of flying a wing, I'd recommend attending a canopy class (Team extreme and various others offer them) that cater to all levels and drill the instructor with any questions you have.

Good luck, blue skies and safe swoops,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JayhawkJumper 0]

Hey Chris, hope the jump class got up on Sunday. I've almost got my helmet set up for stills so we'll have to get some cool hybrid shots. Anyway, you said you didn't like oversteer, and I think almost all ellipticals oversteer, probably more than the sabre2, what about spectre? Openings can't be beat and I doubt there would be oversteer. Next time I'm out you'll also have to jump my safire, it doesn't oversteer for me, but it might at 1.5 loading.

[kansasskydiver 0]

hey yeah the jump class did get up ok on sunday. it was a bit windy every once in awhile, even had a gust to 40 but everyone was on the ground at that time and it never happen again. I had to work so i left but we were swamped with students, thats why i didn't call, you wouldn't have jumped.

as for oversteer, i don't know, maybe it's just cause i wasn't expecting the sabre 2 to do that when i was coming in on my final aproach. it just scared the crap out of me becasue it kept going! maybe i just got a bad canopy or something but i liked the diablo a lot more. It's semi elip but i had more control of it, just had to get used to it and as i said, when it came time to flare i had complete control because my mindset in on landing the damn thing and not thinking about the A HOLE who cut me off on landing. Kinda funny how afterwards he goes "WOW that was cool, you landed right next to me!!!" idiot lol, needs to realize that it's not cool to cut infront of someone on final.

So that leads me to my main concern, i was bucking balls under the diablo trying to get out of the way as obviously i'm coming in a little bit faster than his .8 wing load. i know i'm going to have cross steer, i just don't want what the sabre 2 did, i honestly didn't like it, and wasn't impressed with the openings either. I'll get myself in some demos this summer and see what i like.

As a reply to others, our DZ is a very small college club run. We really don't have very many, if any swoopers etc, so i find it hard to get true advice other than just what is good and what is bad. i find a lot of my info watching and reading up on things and trial and error WAY UP HIGH. I started my HP landings by coming straight in, using both front risers, once i got used to the speed and knew i was able to control the canopy i started doing front riser carving turns. I'm still pulling out of the turn way high, probaly 100 feet or so, but i'm getting used to the speed and the recovery arch of the canopy. I dont want anyone thinking that i'm trying to downsize and then kill myself, i'm just looking for a canopy that i can play with in the air but still be able to control the landings at my level and then when the time is right, start going to HP landings that bring be closer and closer to the line. I have attended a couple of canopy seminars as well as read up on everything i could find from pd and the swoop team, as well as the series parachutist published about "surving the swoop"

From what i've heard then, the cobalt isn't the way to go. Xfire 2, heatwave, stilleto and some others are better. Is this the general view of everyone?

Thanks everyone for you help and concern.

Blue skies

Flash

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[PhreeZone 15]

The Cobalt is a fine canopy, its just a shorter recovery arc then some of the other canopies out there. A stiletto is even shorter.

Here is the big thing, at your loading and from the sounds of your skill level it sounds like you should transition to a 170 with a longer arc. by the time you get to the 1.5+ wing loading levels you should be able to nail the recovery arc of your canopy and be aware enough that bailing is getting to be a rarity since you've got such good airwareness skills that you don't even think about setting up for a HP landing unless there is no traffic.

Just remember that a longer recovery arc means you can get in the corner easier if you let yourself. Here is an incident from last year that is mirroring what you have said so far, Be careful out there....

Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
5/30/2002 Cedartown, GA LAND 22 275 Y/?
Description:
Lessons:
USPA Description: After an uneventful and initial canopy descent, this jumper attempted a 180-degreed turn at approximately 150 feet above the ground. He struck the ground hard with his feet and then his head. He was reported to have been wearing a hrad helmet during this jump but died nevertheless.
USPA Conclusions:The jumper reportedly had recently downsized from a much large parachute just prior to the accident. He was jumping this cnaopy at a wing loading of 1.63:1. The manufacturer of the canpoy he used for the fatal jump recommends that, for the estimated wing loading the jumper chose, the user be an expert skydiver. (Most jumpers would consider 275 jumps less than expert.)
It was not reported whether he had received any canopy instruction before purchasing and attempting to fly the parachute at this advanced wing loading. Jumpers who are downsizing parachutes should receive detailed instructions and training from an experienced canopy specialist.
In any event, turns under canopy must be completed in time for the jumper to return to straight and level flight before the landing flare.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kansasskydiver 0]

hey thanks for the advice. On my 170 i am loaded at 1.5, i'll look into different 170's with a different arch. thanks again and keep the advice rolling please, if you have anything to say i'll listen

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[JJohnson 0]

I have two Cobalts, I love them both. If I were to go to anything else, in the same class it would be: Samurai, CF2.
You can put a Cobalt into a dive and hold it there all you want. The shorter recovery arc is when you let go of the risers.
DEMO, DEMO, DEMO.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

The shorter recovery arc is when you let go of the risers.

That doesn't exactly make sense. Sure, you'll dive further if you hold the canopy in a dive, however, recovery arc is still a function of the canopy design and wingloading. So no matter how long you hold the risers down, the canopy will still try to recover when it wants to (you can feel the increased riser pressure when it does that).

So what I'm saying is, in all actuality the recovery arc its self isn't effected by how long you hold the risers down, the amount of altitude lost in a dive is dependent on how long you hold the risers down (depending on what sort of front riser maneuver you're doing).

Does that make sense? Chuck, am I off base here?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Recovery arc = altitude when the pilot removes all input into the canopy (harness, toggle, and riser) minus altitude canopy recovers at (it's normal glide speed and angle or less). The more altitude lost after input is removed, the longer a canopy's recovery arc is said to be.

Some canopies will, after a hard turn, recover to a shallower glide angle than "steady state", or normal, and lower airspeed, then pitch over and accelerate back to it's "steady state", or normal glide speed and angle. Some canopies, after a hard turn will return to it's "steady state", or normal glide speed and angle without the glide angle becoming shallower or the bleeding off airspeed. A canopy can even climb, without input, after a hard turn, slow to just above stall speed before pitching over and diving to return to it's "steady state" glide speed and angle. A canopy that planes out parallel to the ground after a hard turn is considered to have a "positive" recovery arc. A canopy that does not plane out parallel to the ground after a hard turn is considered to have a "negative" recovery arc. Wing loading and canopy design determine a canopy's recovery arc.

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

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Recovery arc = altitude when the pilot removes all input into the canopy (harness, toggle, and riser) minus altitude canopy recovers a

Alright, then what do you call the state when a canopy tries to start to climb out of a dive, even when holding input?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Alright, then what do you call the state when a canopy tries to start to climb out of a dive, even when holding input?

Any canopy will do that. A canopy with a long recovery arc can be held in a dive with the front risers longer than a canopy with a short recovery can be held, all other things being equal. Some canopies have higher front riser pressure and a short recovery arc, making it difficult to get a long dive out of the canopy. Some canopies have light front riser pressure with a short recovery arc, making it possible to get a long dive out of it, but it recovers quickly when the front risers are relased.

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

Right, so then the recovery arc is still starting and putting forces on the canopy, even with input still being put into the canopy. Right?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Right, keeping the front risers pulled down extends the natural recovery arc of the canopy, but only so far. Eventually, the canopy will be in the same flight state as if the pilot simply pulled down on the front risers from normal, "steady state" flight. The higher the front riser pressure of the canopy, the less the natural recovery arc can be 'artificially' extended or increased by pulling down on the front risers

Hook.

[JJohnson 0]

In which case I would say the Cobalt has light front riser pressure with a shorter recovery arc than say a Crossfire...My 105 Cobalt can be put into a dive easily and stay there. The 120 has higher front riser pressure, I cannot hold it in a dive near as long.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[skycat 0]

I've jumped a crossfire1 116, cobalt 120, crossfire2 108, crossfire1 104, Stiletto 97.

Out of all of them the one with the least oversteer is the crossfire1, it actually kind of feels like you are flying a square until it comes time to land then it loves to dive. The crossfire1 104 had less oversteer than even the cobalt 120, so if that is your concern look for a crossfire1 that has not had the mod done to it. I've heard the mod shortens the recovery arc.

Fly it like you stole it!

[cobaltdan 0]

hey kansas,

sorry been very busy and havent checked the forum in a while.

a few notes on the cobalt. definately give us a call and try a demo. your concerns about oversteer will be quickly alleviated. the cobalt is anything but twitchy. it is very stable, flies big, and does not continue to turn for any appreciable amount after releasing your toggle. flare and glide ratio are second to none, and opening sweet with a huge amount of testing behind them at freefly speeds.

there was a comment about the cobalt having a short recovery arc and it being safer to go with a canopy with a long recovery arc. i couldnt disagree more. a quick recovery arc will save your butt, some day. having a short recovery arc does not mean you can not maintain a dive, it simply means that on its own with no control input the canopy will recover out of a dive to level flight in a shorter span of altitude loss. such properties does not mean you are going to initaiate your set up turn lower, you will still do that at a safe altitude, it just means that if you wind up in the corner one day the canopy can react to potentially get you out faster and with less altidude required.

as for my recommendation of setups cobalts favor a slow initiated carve, by counter steering in your harness you can adjust the recovery arc from very long to short. if your flying style is fast snap hooks (which imo are not as safe and definately not as efficient for distance swooping) you will not be able to maintain a long recovery arc, as the control input is quickly gone and the canopy will naturaly recover.

hope that helps.
thank you for your interest.

sincerely,

dan <><>
atair aerodynamics
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[kansasskydiver 0]

Hey dan thanks for the info. See what you're saying about the cobalt is what i have always heard from them. I agree with what you are saying about a shorter recovery arch. I watched a friend of mine hook in, he's doing fine, but from what i say in that i don't want to put myself in that situation. Also, i do carve turns, i don't like snapping it, just doesn't work for me or my sabre. PM me if you would and i'd like to get set up sometime for a demo. Probably demo a 170 at 1.5 for the time being and then later on in the summer a 150

blue skies

chris

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!