flyhy 0 #1 February 4, 2003 I'm probably not experienced enough yet to even think about swooping... but I'm at a stage now where I progress quite quickly. So I finally had my first sort of swoop: came into landing and did a (sort of unintentional) 180deg. toggle turn into final, speed picking up, suddenly me on the ground, sliding over the landing area on my knees, finally stand up landing. Didn't get seriously hurt but still pissed off my former instructors cause I really shouldn't do this. (Just happened automatically though..). So when and HOW's the right way to start high speed approaches? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 February 4, 2003 I may as well start the flood of "Don't!" replies! For starters, don't do 180s on your toggles close to the ground - if you realise you've come in too low you can't 'dig out' an agressive toggle turn like you can a front riser turn. The best idea is to take it slowly and seek out/absorb as much advice and training from experienced pilots as you can. Gus OutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #3 February 4, 2003 Try looking here for starters. Then realize that everything that is said in the thread can kill you if you do it wrong. Get a coach. Aloha.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmcvey 0 #4 February 4, 2003 Glad you survived, the landing you described has killed many jumpers. QuoteI'm probably not experienced enough yet to even think about swooping... but I'm at a stage now where I progress quite quickly. So I finally had my first sort of swoop: came into landing and did a (sort of unintentional) 180deg. toggle turn into final, speed picking up, suddenly me on the ground, sliding over the landing area on my knees, finally stand up landing. Didn't get seriously hurt but still pissed off my former instructors cause I really shouldn't do this. (Just happened automatically though..). So when and HOW's the right way to start high speed approaches? The "when" part depends on alot of things, is different from one jumper to the next, for some its 1500 jumps, some its never, for some 60 jumps. The "how", would be to First, be able to land your current canopy VERY consistantlly, where you want, being fully aware of all the other jumpers on the load and fully understanding how your canopy responds to all the various inputs (ie risers, toggles the harness etc) These need to be practiced up high. Once you can land really well without building up speed, if you still want to, you can then learn the basics of front riser approaches etc. Doing a "unintentional toggle 180" into the ground suggests your not ready for latter. Try to learn from your mistake, why did it happen? did you set-up wrong? if so, how will you improve next time, were you running downwind too low and felt you needed to get into wind?? how will you prevent that happpening again?? etc. Be careful and dont give in to the temptation to try and run before you can walk. You will get there eventually. But like everything else in skydiving, get good at the basics first. Safe Ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheneyneel 0 #5 February 4, 2003 As RMCVEY said about learning from your mistake, spend A LOT of time on the ground thinking about how you are supposed to set up, how much riser input, altitude everything. Know everthing on the ground in your head before you go and make you canopy flight. Enact your landings and approaches on the ground. just like dirt diving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
174fps 1 #6 February 4, 2003 Bryan Burke from Skydive AZ wrote this a while back it's fairly long but gives a good sequence of progression near the end. www.afn.org/skydive/sta/dta/htp.txt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhy 0 #7 February 4, 2003 "Unintentional" was maybe the wrong word as I was fully aware of what I was doing (which is probably even worse aye?), I just didn't plan it but I sort of knew that I was just high enough to not die. Also talked to some more experienced people about it afterwards and asked them for advice but I'm sick of just getting a "go and try and find out" -reply. My landings are quite good under my canopy (Sabre) but they are better in no wind days with more ground speed... and that's the point where I'd like to start from. Anyway, thanks for all replies so far! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmcvey 0 #8 February 5, 2003 Quote"Unintentional" was maybe the wrong word as I was fully aware of what I was doing (which is probably even worse aye?), I just didn't plan it but I sort of knew that I was just high enough to not die. Are you sure? it sounds like if you turned a few feet lower, this discussion would be in the incidents forum, and you would be the topic. Doing 180 toggle turns onto final will not help your "swoop" (im guessing this is what you were attempting) unless you nail them exactly right. A tiny bit wrong, your swoop will be nowhere as good as it could, or you'll die. Using front risers on the other hand, when done properly can increase you landing speed, be more forgiving (when done correctly) and in theory will give you a better surf. Im telling you this because it sounds like you are intent on trying these things so hopefuilly this will prevent you hurting yourself or other jumpers. I am not an expert canopy pilot. I am a very inexpierenced skydiver, and you need to accept the fact that even after your 100 jumps, you are too. But this is how i went about what you described, and as yet, have not injured myself. On your next jump, open high. Say 5000'. Discuss this with the other jumpers so you dont catch anyone off guard. After clearing your airspace and locating the dz, do a control check on your canopy. If your happy, release your brakes and experiment with your front risers. If you have dive loops, use them, if not take hold of both front risers, as high up as comfortable, and pull them down approx. 1 - 2 inches.do not let go of the toggles to do this, Feel what the canopy does. And slowly let them up, and SMOOTHLY apply the brakes until you feel the canopy level out. At this point your slowing down, as you do, slowly continue to apply the brakes until are virtually in dead air, but not so much you stall. Practice this until you can transistion from.... risers on.... up slowly....brakes on, in one fluid movement. When you get to your hard-deck, set up your landing as normal and try and land as smoothly as possible, into a tip toe landing. Forget about front risers for your next few jumps. Practice this on your next few jumps until YOU are 100% comfortable with the way your canopy begins to dive when you apply front risers. When your happy, set you landing up as normal and get on to your finals a little higher than usual and on heading to your landing point. At approx 50 feet hold both risers and start a gentle dive, slowly releasing and onto brakes. If you let go too high, which you will for the first few times, simply land as normal. dont get back on the risers, you dont have enough height Do this landing 25 times. This will get you used to what height you need to start the front risers, and at what height you need to let go. But go easy, and its better to let go slowly with height to spare, than suddenlly let go at the last second and slam on the brakes. This worked for me. It may or may not for you. Ive found the hardest thing to be patience. Have patience and always abort your riser approach if things arent perfect. Observe how you set the landing up, how accurate your landing was and how smooth the flare was. You shouldnt have to run off speed. If you do you havent mastered it. Be critical of yourself and try to better each landing, in terms of smoothness, accuracy, safety, and how finished your landing. DONT rely on this post to learn how to land properly, get someone who you can rely on at your dz to help you. this is just what I did. QuoteAlso talked to some more experienced people about it afterwards and asked them for advice but I'm sick of just getting a "go and try and find out" -reply If the expierenced jumpers at your dz are telling you this they are VERY wrong. There is no need for you to "just figure things out". I wouldnt ask them jumpers for any more advice on anything because by saying what they have sounds like they have already nearly killed you. Be safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhy 0 #9 February 5, 2003 cheers mate! Will try that and no worries I'll be safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #10 February 6, 2003 I am not going to harp on you about your attempts to gain a higher performance swoop, but I am going to share with you something that I did. On jump number 156, I had been experimenting with front riser approaches. I knew I was high enough to execute my typical 180 front riser so I went ahead with it. I found that I was a little higher than I though so I buried both fronts to lengthen my dive and gain more speed. However my lack of experience at that time didn't allow me to see the proper sight picture. The end result was that as I was plaining out and sinking into my swoop with a level canopy, I ended up framming myself into the ground. I shattered my left femur into 5 pieces, broke and dislocated my left hip as well as achieved multiple fractures in three vertabrae in the middle of my back. I hit the ground at about 20mph vertically and 35-40 horizontally. So, I would suggest to you that if you really want to try high performance landings to wait until you have at least 200 jumps on your current canopy. I had to take off a year from something that I love more than sex. My ex-girlfriend can attest to that fact to. Oh yeah, having injuries like that will also greatly hamper your sex life for a while too.Take it slow man. Your life is only going to be as long as you want it to be, based on the decisions you make while skydiving. Honestly, I probably shaved 20 years off of my life by making one stupid mistake and I am damn lucky to be alive. Currently, I am back and better than ever and fully understand why people were telling me what they were. It is a common thing for newcomers to want to advance and to think that they are better "than what everyone thinks". Quite honestly, neither you nor myself are any different than anyone else out there. Some of us are just luckier than others. Don't depend on luck, your life and well being depend on it. Experience and good judgement will take you further and make you better as well as more respected. Be safe, learn as much as you can and by all means listen and learn from those who have been there. But most of all .........HAVE FUN! Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #11 February 6, 2003 Here bud...... this is a sabre loaded @ 1 to 1...... Please just watch..... http://www.flintwebdev.com/f1freak_lucky.wmv Now.... I am in no way saying not to swoop.... LOL, damn i love it too..... BUT..... in this video you see what WILL happen without the experience.... Take it for what it's worth.....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #12 February 6, 2003 Man - start out slow, get fifty or so just both front riser approaches and progress from there, keep current, i.e. not fifty in a year. IMHO, you shouldn't be doing anything more unless you are regularly jumping your parachute. I know it looks cool when someone busts off a 540 swoop landing between a couple of trees - but that takes massive time and patience (not to mention tons of jump experience). Take your time. Good luck. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #13 February 9, 2003 Also be selective and choose right people to listen to ... I think there is a high chance to get all kinds of wrong practical advices if you listen to people with less than 200 jumps teaching you HOW TO SWOOP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
