Sabre 170 2 Sabre 150

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

I have about 70 jumps now, 25 on student material, 25 on falcon 175 and 20 on my own Sabre 170.
The Sabre is pleasing me, but I still haven't got the correct judgement for my final turn.
Don't misunderstand me, all my landings are safe and upright, I rather turn it in too high than too low.
My weight is about 85 kilograms (gear included).
I recently got a great offer on a Sabre 150 main, practically new ( +/- 100 jumps) while mine hasabout 1200 jumps on it).
I' perfectly confident while under my 170, but I'm wondering if moving on to a smaller canopy at this level would be a good idea.
The original plan was to sit the year out , and switch to a 135 next year at about 250 jumps.
Advise anyone???
Will jump for beer, bs AiRpollUtiOn

[PhreeZone 15]

At a 1.12 loading now that should be enough to keep you happy for another 100 jumps at least. Then when you get to 200 jumps or more then possibly look at the 150. The 150 will give you a 1.25 loading and then the 135 is a 1.4 at least. Work on getting your turn in right and canopy exercises now so that those skill can transfer to your new canopy if you need them to. *Flat turns, Braked turns, flare turns, carveing landings, etc*
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[billvon 2,476]

>I' perfectly confident while under my 170 . . .
Except for the judging the turn to final, which is pretty important.
> but I'm wondering if moving on to a
> smaller canopy at this level would be a good idea.
No. Get to the point where you can control the canopy you fly very well before going smaller. If you don't do that, you will always be afraid to learn to fly your new canopy, and you'll never develop the survival skills you need to survive the inevitable problems under it. Learn to flare turn, flat turn, flare with rear risers, land uphill and downhill, and do high performance landings with toggle and riser on the 170 before going smaller. Once you can do all that (it sounds like you can't right now, if you're still working on turn-to-final) you will be ready to safely downsize.
-bill von

[GrumpySmurf 0]

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do high performance landings with toggle and riser on the 170 before going smaller

While I do not question the need for one to fully grasp how thier canopy performs and squeeze as much performance out of it before downsizing - is 'do high performance landings with toggle' a great idea for any lower timer to try? Just doesn't feel right.

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

Well, about this turn to final, I don't get it the way it could be because I'm holding back, what I would like to do is start the flare when the canopy is just out of (or still in) the turn, this on toggle.
I get the speed I want on front risers, but on toggle I hold back to avoid turning too low, just cautious I guess.
It's not like the canopy is flying me...
Then again, where I jump only the wacko turf-surfers under velocity - vengeance - VX -FX's do those kind of flare while carving type of things.
Lots of guys with 1000+ jumps go for long flat turns on final.
I think if I waited 3-5 more seconds before getting in the turn, I'd get a nice result, but I'm not anxious to try.
Better safe than sorry, and I don't think this attitude will ever change, if it did, someone should tell me, 'cause then I would be playing a dangerous game...
Will jump for beer, bs AiRpollUtiOn

[Jimbo 0]

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Well, about this turn to final, I don't get it the way it could be because I'm holding back, what I would like to do is start the flare when the canopy is just out of (or still in) the turn, this on toggle.

While I think it's important to understand the flight characteristics of your canopy in all situations I do have to ask why you're spending time trying to perfect a low toggle turn. That's dangerous. Quit it.

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I get the speed I want on front risers, but on toggle I hold back to avoid turning too low, just cautious I guess.

Stick to the front risers. There's a reason all the pros use front riser approaches. There's another reason that _none_ of them use toggle approaches.

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It's not like the canopy is flying me...

Then why isn't it doing what you want?

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Then again, where I jump only the wacko turf-surfers under velocity - vengeance - VX -FX's do those kind of flare while carving type of things.

No reason you can't learn on your Sabre 170. Do you think those guys loading a Velocity at 2.2:1 learned high performance landings on their present canopies?

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I think if I waited 3-5 more seconds before getting in the turn, I'd get a nice result, but I'm not anxious to try.

Then you've got no business downsizing just yet.

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Better safe than sorry, and I don't think this attitude will ever change, if it did, someone should tell me, 'cause then I would be playing a dangerous game...

Amen.
-
Jim

[DanG 1]

If you are trying to toggle turn for speed on final you are already playing a dangerous game. At 70 jumps you should not, in my opinion, be inducing extra speed for landing with either toggle or riser. You don't have enough experience to know what you don't know. You have to whole rest of your life to kill yourself under a tiny canopy.
Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but the rush to downsize and /or whip out a monster swoop these days is getting out of control.
- Dan G

[rfarris 1]

Dude I'm not an expert, with my 150 jumps, but it sounds like to me your planning out your canopy progression by number of jumps. Which I don't totally agree with. I strongly believe that any jumper knows when it is time for him or her to downsize, regardless of how many jumps somebody else says they should have. My advise to you would be this: Before you go out and buy the 150, or 135 next year, spend some time doing intentional crosswinds, downwinds, and off airport landings, all under your Sabre 170. Yes, I said intentional. Because you WILL do these types of landings at one time or another, unintentionaly. So why not practice them under controlled circumstances now, under your bigger canopy. I made my first downwind with 20 mph wind under my Stiletto 150 just the other weekend, unintentional. Never made one under my Sabre 170. I ain't gonna lie, I was scared when I saw how fast the ground was moving and there wasn't shit I could do about it but try to milk off as much canopy speed as I could before I tumbled. So, fly your Sabre 170. Then fly it some more. Just fly your canopy. Run out a downwind or two, try to maintain your heading in a crosswind landing. You'll know when it's time to go on to something more challenging. Notice, I haven't said anything about highspeed landings. That's your decision.

[billvon 2,476]

>While I do not question the need for one to fully grasp how thier canopy
>performs and squeeze as much performance out of it before downsizing - is 'do
> high performance landings with toggle' a great idea for any lower timer to try?
>Just doesn't feel right.
Since something like 20% of the fatalities last year were inadvertant low toggle turns, I think that learning how to do them right is absolutely critical. You don't need to become proficient at them - just demonstrate that you can start a toggle hook at an appropriate altitude. Bail if you want before the landing. Learning where to initiate teaches you something absolutely critical - where to _not_ initiate. I've personally seen 3 jumpers get badly broken when they made a toggle turn low to avoid someone or try to turn into the wind or something. Had they known they were below a safe toggle hook altitude they could probably have avoided a lot of pain.
-bill von

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

First of all: thanks all for giving me advise, it's the "second of all" that you won't like.
I asked instructors at the club what they thaught of the idea, they all gave me a thumbs up, so after test jumping the sabre 150 this weekend (and them watching me) I decided to go ahead and buy it.
As i said before, I'm not one of those "I wanna go smaller every 3 weeks" kinda guys, and I really wasn't planning to downsize until this canopy was offered for sale to me.
My reasons for buying it:
1) MONEY offcourse, I don't know the exact exchange rates, but I sold my old Sabre 170 with 1000+ jumps on it(I knew someone that wanted it) for about 100 dollars more than I paid my new Sabre 150 with less than 100 jumps on it, basically the best deal you could ever get, and for the record: I sold my 170 for the price that my rigger estimated it, about 370 dollars, so it wasn't a rip-off, my new canopy was offered to me for a ridiculously low price.
2) The instructors at my DZ told me this canopy shouldn't be a problem for me.
3) OK, it flies faster, and that's more fun!
Did 12 jumps with it this weekend, always kept it in half-brakes untill I was sure to be clear of the others regardless of what I did, played with it between 2000ft and 1000ft, made clean box approach patterns and went for straight-in or shallow toggle turn approaches.
Landings were great, I was amazed about the range of flare toggle positions, and the amount of lift available at low speed.
I'm a happy little puppy under this canopy, and thrust me, when I'm fooling around at higher altitude I just love those agressive turns, but I'm not tempted to try one below 200ft.
I think I'm just one of those controle-freaks, so for now I go for smooth approaches, I don't like the idea of the canopy flying me, the other way around is a must.
I think I can expect a few crispy comments on this one, but know that I'm gratefull for all of your previous advise, and that it was constantly in the back of my mind when taking my decision.
Will jump for beer, bs AiRpollUtiOn