skygeek 0 #1 December 27, 2001 Have any of you guys that jump reflexes out there considered getting the new pop top mod that bombermfg is offering? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #2 December 27, 2001 I just saw something about it go by. I don't see any rush to run out and get it. My pop-top stays rock solid and tight all the way through a repack cycle. I think that has as much to do with your rigger and the container/canopy size combination as with the design. Some people have loose fabric all over, and others are really snug. Those in the former category might consider the mod.Just my $.02, and I'm no rigger.JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #3 December 27, 2001 Anything to cover up some of the pink! By the way, while we're on the topic of Reflexes, what's everyone think of the catapult system (the 2nd reserve pilot chute)? A few experienced jumpers have recommended that I get it removed, but my rigger swears by it. Are there any known cases where it saved someone? How about cases where it caused more trouble than it saved? Any stats at all?Davehttp://www.skydivingmovies.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #4 December 27, 2001 Well hell, I might. I didn't know they were offering it for the old-school Reflexes. I think it looks pretty sharp. I almost always have to get my pop-top retightened after a reserve repack. Pet me! I'm harmless and cute! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #5 December 28, 2001 Quotewhat's everyone think of the catapult system It was installed on mine every time I jumped it. I wasn't sure about it at first but after seeing the test video I was sold.I know of at least one incident where it did what it was designed to do and one where it didn't. The one where it didn't was a jumper with a horseshoed main who deployed the reserve without deploying the main p/c and/or cutting away first. The canopies entangled. imho in that case it was a crap shoot whether either the springloaded p/c or the Catapult would clear the mess; imo the Catapult in no way contributed to that death.I don't remember the details on the one where it worked, but I'll bet if you do a search on the wreck you'd find reference to it somewhere.pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBTECH 0 #6 December 28, 2001 Other than the reasons stated by others in the industry, I will not use the Catapult system, for reasons of potential bag strip, due to two times the 'usual' pilot chute drag at any said deployment speed. The drag of two inflated pilot chutes can easily exceed 140 lbs at 120 MPH. (200+ lbs at 150 MPH) Dave BrownellReflex owner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #7 December 28, 2001 Dave,For those of us that are pretty much skydiving newbies, could you explain what "bag strip" is in simple terms? I have a vague idea, but I could be wrong.Thanks!JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #8 December 28, 2001 No. they all loosen. Some of the newer ones had a nicer pop top design that looked neater and looked tighter longer. A tighter fitting reserve will make it look looser faster also.Now, if your rigger, pre stretches their closing loops, some anal riggers do that, it may make stretch minor enough to were it is unnoticable until next re-pack.That is a pain in the ass, I re-tighten mine myself everytime it gets loose (granted I know how to do it safely). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #9 December 28, 2001 the mod was really just the old C-flex (Crew) modification. It does not cause you to not have to tighten your pop top. it is just a floppy flap of material to prevent another canopies lines from getting under your pop-top. I'm not going to bother, my Reflex is a pond swoop rig anyway.ramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #10 December 28, 2001 $15 is probably the cost for having C-Flex flaps installed during production. It will cost far more to retrofit them to an old Reflex. To install the top floppy flap, you have to replace the top reserve flap. To install the bottom floppy flap, you have to replace the entire mid flap. It is only an hour's labor for a Master Rigger, but it is still a complex project. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygeek 0 #11 December 28, 2001 I contacted Bombermfg and they said it would be $15 for the mod and $10 for instaltion plus S&H. This is for and older reflex. Good price if you ask me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBTECH 0 #12 December 28, 2001 Justin asks--Dave,For those of us that are pretty much skydiving newbies, could you explain what "bag strip" is in simple terms? I have a vague idea, but I could be wrong.DB> If we have, let's say, 200 lbs of pilot chute drag. (200 lbs on bridle) That would also translate to the canopy 'assembly' pushing on the bag closing flap with 200 lbs at bag launch! For the record--this translates to 32 G's of bag acceleration! (200 over 6 minus 1)(32 G's with a 6 lb canopy)Looking at the mechanics of a closing flap--half of this 200 lbs is shared by each end/side of the closing flap. (100 lbs ea side) This now means that the two locking stows each have 50 lbs of tension on them at bag launch! (locking stows stretched out much at bag launch)Bag strip/definition--If the locking stows fail at 'bag launch'--this will result in the canopy remaining just above the rig, with the free bag long gone!--or (worst case scenario) in the pack tray, with the free bag long gone!When Para Flite first came out with the reserve free bag system on the Swift system back in the early/mid eighties, they used Mil-spec rubber bands for the two locking stows. This system was TSO'ed. Shortly after it's release, there was a least one fatality due to bag strip! The one I recall, was at Quincy. This was with one pilot chute-not two!As I recall, shortly after that, they went to the 1/8" elastic bungee that we see today. (rigs were recalled) The 1/8" bungee is a continuos 'laid flat loop' with each end of the loop being a locking stow. Dave Brownell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #13 December 28, 2001 Mine is not installed.Emergency procedures..babyramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tlshealy 0 #14 December 28, 2001 Justin,Bag strip is where the bag is snatched off with such force that it leaves the reserve canopy and lines sitting in your container after the bag and pilot chute leave. I actually don't see how it can happen with the locking stows on the bag, but since a free-bag isn't attached to the canopy I guess it's possible. I've heard of of it happening before, but I've never see anything official.BSBDTad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBTECH 0 #15 December 28, 2001 Tad said--I've heard of it happening before, but I've never seen anything official.DB> You should have read my post first. (Para Flite paragraph)Dave Brownell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #16 December 30, 2001 Interesting. Never heard of bag strip before. The only type of reason I've been given for removing the catapult is things like "what happens when one pilot chute goes on one side of you, and the other goes on the other side during an unstable reserve deployement?" Is that another realistic scenario?David(skydiving movies FTP server went down after being up unattended for 10 days... new record! Might be restarted next week.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tlshealy 0 #17 December 30, 2001 I believe the original purpose of the wide bridle on a free bag was to act the same way as the catapult PC, if the pilot chute caught on something , the bridle is supposed to lift the bag off and still deploy, if this works like it's supposed to, the second PC is kind of redundant. I wonder how many times people find themselves hanging under their reserve with their PC and free bag still attached to them or hooked on to their cut-away main? That would be interesting to know.Tad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #18 December 30, 2001 It is pretty rare for reserve pilotchutes to hang up on skydivers feet, etc.So the reason for retaining the wide bridle is largely academic/historic.Most manufacturers have strayed so far from Para-Flite's original guidelines (loose corners, staging loops, etc.) that wide bridles are a waste of webbing.The main reason for the catapult is to pull the reserve out of a tightly packed container, because nowadays most manufacturers depend upon friction for staging reserve deployment.The catapult is a solution to a reserve hesitation that (Reflex designer) Mickey Cottle experienced on a Vector I that was too tight. The Vector factory responded by vastly improving their reserve pilotchutes. Any Vector Is still in use have long since been retrofitted with Vector II pilotchutes. These days no self-respecting rigger will touch a Vector I pilotchute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #19 December 30, 2001 QuoteI will not use the Catapult system, for reasons of potential bag strip, due to two times the 'usual' pilot chute drag at any said deployment speed. The drag of two inflated pilot chutes can easily exceed 140 lbs at 120 MPH. (200+ lbs at 150 MPH) Is there test data to support this? The usual configuration of the pilot chutes should be one above the other, with the lower one providing most of the drag.In the early 80's, some jumpers tried using two spring-loaded pilot chutes on their mains in an attempt to improve their openings, but they went back to single pilot chutes when they found no discernable difference. Poynter suggests that the pilot chutes interfere with each other.Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #20 December 31, 2001 I have 2 Reflexes and have found Bomber to offer incredible service! When I had my rig hooked up, I opted out of the "catapult". Thinking that it might be OK for a horseshoemal, but the second reserve pilot chute will reduce the precious distance needed to clear other mals. (I had 4 chops on one rig)I had problems with the pop-top appearing to work loose, but I found a rigger at AerOhio (Wink) who new how to pack a Reflex. It looks good with no gaps around the pop-top. A reserve on a Reflex packs different than other pop-tops...make sure you find a rigger with Reflex experience. Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #21 December 31, 2001 Hey, no pun intended, butThey are actually easy to pack and a rigger (senior rigger) is supposed to be able to follow the instructions in the manufacturer's manual..It is not like a racer or anything, I have very little rigging experience but was able to pack my reflex nicely.a hasty rigger can do a "less than neat" job on the pilot chute...but..sheesh. it really is an easy rig.a good FAA rigger should do a good job on any rig he accepts.but I may be wrongramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadDog 0 #22 December 31, 2001 I've found that a two-day process works best for repacking a Reflex. I pack it, wait 24 hours to let the air seep out a little more, then snug the poptop down a little more. I always test the pull too. Cosmetics are important, but function is more important.CorporateLawyerDave aka BadDog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #23 December 31, 2001 Another important point if you want a Reflex pilotchute to seat deeply and not work loose is to create a large "crater" for it to sit in. The "craterization" process starts as you pull the side flaps over the bag. The farther outboard you can push the freebag and the farther inboard you can pull the side flaps, the neater the pack job. Ideally there is no slack freebag fabric under the base of the pilotchute.Sorry, but the Talon 2 trick of twisting a packing paddle does not work on Reflexes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #24 January 1, 2002 Quotea hasty rigger can do a "less than neat" job on the pilot chute...Just make sure that your hasty rigger doesn't stuff all the pilot chute material under the poptop cover instead of under the p/c spring like one rigger did a few years ago....Quotea good FAA rigger should do a good job on any rig he acceptsWith "accepts" being the operative word. I never could make a Racer look good and I was too lazy to find someone to teach me the secrets so I finally stopped packing them. Wasn't a great loss for me, the b/f never paid for his pack jobs anyway! pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #25 January 2, 2002 any rigger that does that is a moron that can't follow directions . this is why there are phone numbers for rig manufacturers. And FAA riggers should own a phone .ramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
