Icarus Crossfire - Worth Less?

[jmfreefly 0]

I have one of the Crossfire's on the Annex 1 list, and I have been talking with Icarus wrt/ sending my canopy back. They have been pretty good to deal with. I have yet to actually send my canopy back, since they are claiming up to 3 week turnaround.
However, my concern is that I have a 'Black listed' canopy now. I bought it in April for $1450, and I doubt I could get half of that if I tried to sell it now. Canopies with big 'REPAIRED -- WONT KILL YOU' tags on them dont sell well.
The heard the DZO at a neighboring DZ was selling an affected crossfire (before repair) for 1/2 price -- no jumps on it.
Anybody else have similar concerns?

[Kirils 1]

I was wondering exactly what is being done to the canopy to correct the problems. And how do you evaluate that the repaired canopy is OK.
Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...

[PhreeZone 15]

Icarus is claiming a Trim change in the Crossfire along with replacing the Spectra Lines with Vectran will solve the Problem. If you want more details I'd call Icarus and ask. They've admited there is a problem, and are at least doing something to fix it.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[skymedic 0]

I have to admit I am surprised by how well Icarus has handled this...bringing it right up, instead of shoveling it under a rug somewhere...
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[Kirils 1]

Icarus has done a good job. My fear is that the Crossfire could sink the company. Look at what happened to Flightline. I heard talk (I have not verified this) that Lisa Gallagher's death has brought a suit against Icarus.
Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...

[jmfreefly 0]

Yes, this is a similar fear (somewhat) that I have. Not that it will sink Icarus, but that they will drop the crossfire and come out with some other (very similar) canopy.. Then my 2 crossfires are worth much less.
Heck, what do I really care.. I love this canopy. I just received my custom 115 and I do notice a few changes. Not sure whether it is just a European thing, or a real mod across the board.
The ultimate 'good will' gesture in my mind is to replace the canopies on their 'fix' list, but I am sure that will never happen. Then no one can claim (later) that they were hurt under a bad canopy. I guess they can still claim that their canopy should have been on the 'fix' list and wasnt.
I wish I knew where these canopies were mfg. Not Europe,
but wondering if it is the US, or NZ.

[Geoff 0]

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I have to admit I am surprised by how well Icarus has handled this

Well, I'm surprised how badly they've handled it - a mass of contradictory communications and announcemements
- lists of affected serial numbers changing from one week to the next
- S&TA approval needed one week then not the next,
- a statement that all Crossfires would require a trim change then retracted a few days later
It's their inability to keep their story straight rather than the problems with the canopies that have destroyed my confidence in them.
Sure they're worth less - and it's official - the Icarus website has un-jumped Crossfires for only $1200 (http://www.icaruscanopies.com/demos_for_sale.htm)
Geoff

[Geoff 0]

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I just received my custom 115 and I do notice a few changes

Out of interest - what changes? just curious.....
Geoff

[johnny1488 1]

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I heard talk (I have not verified this) that Lisa Gallagher's death has brought a suit against Icarus

I hope not. I know its horrible and all, I watched it happen but imho any canopy would have done the same with the same result. But just as everything else in this world someone was to pay.
Johnny

[prost 0]

What story have you been watching. At least get you facts straight. You sound like you have a grudge against them. Or is it like one of those company fan things (like,"I'm a Ford man so piss on Chevys").

[PhreeZone 15]

I've got no grudge against anyone, but the statments off their site were contridictory for a bit.
At first they said Only the DzO/STA could let someone jump a canopy on the list, then the next week revised it to say jumper descreation was all that ws needed basicaly.
I'm glad they just finally came up with a solution to the problem.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[Geoff 0]

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At least get you facts straight.

which facts do you think I've got wrong?

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Or is it like one of those company fan things (like,"I'm a Ford man so piss on Chevys").

No - I currently jump Icarus canopies.

[prost 0]

First off they never changed their story on the S&TA situation. They only pointed out that people were to reading the statement correctly (this is called a clarification). The statement was that an S&TA was do determine if a jumper had the experience to jump a canopy. Something S&TA's should do anyway. The did not want jumpers jumping a canopy if they did not have the experience to know it was not flying correctly. A jumper at our drop zone got one of the first Crossfires and jumped it for quite a while untill someone else jumped it and told him it was not supposed to buck like that in front riser turns. This is the original statement they released but many people took it as the S&TA was supposed to determine the airworthyness of the canopies. So they released a clarification.
Second, on the issue of changing the list of affected canopies. After they put out the first list they asked for people to give them feed back on their canopies. After they did this they found more canopies with problems so they added to the list.
Second they have not changed the recommendation of a line trim change. When the first notice came out they stated that they believed a line trim change would solve the problems. They concluded that a line trim change was needed and are currently doing this to the canopies.
These are the facts I am talking about. We don't need wide spread speculation or rumors. It does not do anyone any good. The only thing good from it is you might be able to get a Crossfire for a little cheaper now.
William

[skybytch 259]

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Sure they're worth less - and it's official - the Icarus website has un-jumped Crossfires for only $1200

By that logic the fact that I sold some Spectres from our stock at 30% off list price a couple of months ago means that the value of a brand new Spectre is 10% less than it was before. Not. Just means that a few people got a really good deal on a Spectre, and right now if you want one you can get a really good deal on a Crossfire by contacting the manufacturer.
Perhaps those unjumped Crossfires were orders that were cancelled and Icarus is trying to get the money they have into them back as quick as possible? Is that wrong?
pull and flare,
lisa

[Geoff 0]

I'm not speculating or trying to spread rumours. I've read all the bulletins very carefully. Maybe it's just that our perception of the same facts is a little different.

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...they never changed their story on the S&TA situation...

Looked like more of a change than a clarification to me, but OK - it's a matter of opinion.

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...they asked for people to give them feed back on their canopies. After they did this they found more canopies with problems so they added to the list

OK, but it's precisely the fact that they didn't know which canopies had problems that damaged my confidence.

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they have not changed the recommendation of a line trim change

I have to disagree on this one. A notice on the Icarus web-site on 18 October said "The result is that a minor line-trim change will be implemented on all Crossfire’s." That's an exact quote except I added the bold. But when the service bulletin was released on 25 October, only listed serial numbers required trim modification. (Look at the threads on this forum from around 18-25 October.)
I'm really not anti-Icarus. My current Safire is great. I know several people who love their Crossfires, and I had a Crossfire on order when the bulletins started. Mainly as a result of what I perceived as a series of inconsistent announcements, Icarus failed to keep my confidence, so I cancelled the order.
I believe the Crossfire is probably a great-handling and safe canopy. My plan is to wait a few months, and maybe order a Crossfire next Spring if the situation remains stable until then, and if I believe the gap between the price and the resale value is acceptably small.
Geoff

[Haggis 0]

"I was wondering exactly what is being done to the canopy to correct the problems. And how do you
evaluate that the repaired canopy is OK"
I've had mine re-trimmed. The point where the B lines meet the A lines has been moved a couple of inches to flatten out the angle that the nose of the canopy meets the air at. There is a notice fixed to the warning label indicating that it's been modified. In terms of the changes to how it flies, front riser pressure is heavier but it's solid as a rock and it loves to dive when asked. Rear risers are a bit lighter and it doesn't seem to have quite as much bottom end flare as it used to. Overall I prefer the new trim. Haven't had a turbulent day to fly it yet but mine never gave me any grief before the retrim anyway. It did buck around a bit same as my Stiletto used to but because it's a Crossfire, everyone was fixating on it and paying no heed to the fact that the rest of the canopies that were doing the same thing.

[weid14 0]

they only moved the cascade down a few inches? That's interesting cause they removed the cascade from mine -- the A/B goes all the way to teh risers. you are right, it made front riser pressure heavier. I've flown mine (intentionally) behind other canopies (for the wake turbulence) and it is solid. Mine's been in every conceivable wind condition and has been solid. I noticed the openings became a little more sporty though after the mod.

[jmfreefly 0]

Hmm.. Let me see if I can identify them.
1) The patch is in the center, not to the side of the middle seam. Not a functional difference, but one I noticed right away.
2) The brake line cascade is different I beleive (I would have to look at them side by side to verify). I just remembering rigging the canopy up and saying to myself "Hmm.. this is different I think". Dont quote me on this.
3) The brake line looks bigger (although it may just be the tension put on my older one that makes it look smaller).
4) The slider drawstrings are different. The channels are separate webbing, versus being a tunnel formed by double layered zp. The newer (or maybe just European) slider is a better configuration functionality-wise. However, it has two white stripes (the webbing) where the other is a solid color.
4) The biggest difference I see (which looks to be functional, yet I can't tell exactly how) is how the outside lines connect to the stabilizer. My earlier canopy has the line sewn directly to the stabilizer material. The newer one has a thin piece of webbing sewn to the stabilizer, and then the line sewn to the webbing a tiny bit below the edge of the stabilizer. It seems that this shift in where this attaches would affect the vortexing on the trailing edge under load. Then again, I would need to try to compare true distances to determine if the 'pivot point' is different.
Oh yeah, on my 'black listed' canopy, two of the lines were swapped on the links when I got it from Square 1. I am glad I checked it when rigging it on risers. :)

[skybytch 259]

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two of the lines were swapped on the links when I got it from Square 1. I am glad I checked it when rigging it on risers. :)

Me too! When I was just a riglet (rigger in training), I was kinda surprised when I was told by the rigger training me to fully inspect all new gear - container, reserve and main - before assembling it; I thought parachute manufacturers were perfect before that. After assembling a few new rigs I learned that it's not at all uncommon to find that lines are swapped on the links on a new canopy.
Doesn't matter if the canopy has lots of jumps on it or is brand spanking new, ALWAYS do a complete line continuity check when hooking a different canopy up to your rig. If you don't know how, find someone to teach you. When I pack I also do a quick line check - check the outside A/B lines, the outside C/D lines and the steering lines (and remove twists from the steering lines as I'm checking them). Spending a couple extra minutes every time verifying that the lines are correct could save you the cost of a reserve repack... and repacks are expensive here in southern California! pull and flare,
lisa