Cobalt vs. Comp Cobalt

[prost 0]

Does anyone have experience with the competition cobalts. I am curious to know what their flight characteristics are?

[ramon 0]

My friend Conway was jumping an 85 or 95 I beleive. He is not super aggressive, but he liked the way it flies (that doesn't say much, but..)
He said it slammed him 4 times out of 5 where as a regular cobalt did not....he called the rep and the rep said it was designed for terminal openings not just a hop n pop competition item....
I gave him some packing tips (small rubber bands 3-4" line bites, 18" after last stow), but it still smacked him???
Something to think about.
ramon

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Actually, of the very-few competition Cobalts in existence, all that are regularly jumped open better than a stock Cobalt in the opinion of their pilots. I believe Ramon's friend got Dan's 95, which I believe is actually a Howard Mod and not a true CC. At any rate, my teammates Bryan Harrel at Elsinore and Tony Canant in South Carolina absolutely swear by theirs and wouldn't ever care to own a stock one again. The competition Cobalt is not a parachute for the average recreational jumper. It is designed for the person that wants to reap the absolute maximum performance out of a "conventional", non cross-braced eliptical. Turns are much quicker and the dive is much steeper than a stock model. While the bottom end on a stock Cobalt is very powerful, the competiton model is even more so. In my limited experience under the competition model - I have been competing all this year so far with a stock 75- I can say that that task-specific main flies like a parachute one size smaller, but has the lift of the larger size and more forward speed. I just put a competiton 65 in my container yesterday and will be putting about 100 jumps on it to get it dialed for the next meet. I sent my stock 75 home with Joe Bennett (Skydive Monroe) to have him do the Howard Mod to it. Basically, the Howard Mod is what I would call half a competition Cobalt. Triangles are sewn to the front of the ribs with suspension lines- the loaded ribs- closing off more of the nose and providing lateral bracing. The competiton cobalt has the triangles on all the ribs and the bottom skin is cut back on the loaded ribs, thus moving the A-lines back almost an inch. This allows for better pressurization which is needed with so much of the nose blocked off. A stock canopy with the triangle-type "Howard" mod done to all the ribs- not just the loaded ones- will barely open, thus the cut-back bottom skin on the competion model. A true competition Cobalt is a dream to fly in the right person's hands. The Howard Mod can be done to almost any performance main. It is VERY popular in the south and is regularly done to Alpha/Space canopies and Heatwaves. Cost (for me at least) was $150. Check with Dan or look at the website, but the competion Cobalt runs several hundred dollars more than a stocker.
Chuck
Team Atair
Muff Brother# 2857

[prost 0]

Chuck,
Can you tell me in what areas this canopy would excell in over a vx or fx? I am assuming this is its main competition.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The difference in the Cobalt, both competition and stock, and the FX and VX is pretty substantial. Cobalt openings are fantastic, FX/VX (especially VX) openings are very odd. They dance around a bit, then surge very hard. My VX-74's lines would regularly go slack on this surge. It is much easier to dial a Cobalt landing than either of the other two mains you mentioned. Before my VX, I was jumping an Alpha 84. I was getting righteous swoops with that main. When I got my VX, it took me nearly a month to get the thing where I could regularly achieve the swoop lengh I was getting with the Alpha. It is just a lot more work. Some of those that do nothing but swoop in wide open spaces without fear of running into student traffic, etc, do better than me under a tri-brace, but my teammates and I kick ass on quite a few guys flying VX's. The competition Cobalt has the added bottom end speed to carry it into "the corner" where the canopy's lift can better be translated into swoop length. Bottom line is that it opens at least as good as a stock Cobalt, but in the hands of a very tuned-in pilot (who might otherwise be jumping a VX or Xaos) it can be swooped farther quicker, which is what we need in some of the canopy swooping events. The speed event in the PPPB tour is one of them; distance another. The Cobalt and it's race-only brother will serve me just fine until the release of the Atair Onyx; the upcoming tri-brace that is COMPLETELY different than what is currently out there.
Chuck

[DZBone 0]

Quote

the Atair Onyx; the upcoming tri-brace

Oooh, do tell!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I will let Dan answer up with the technical specifications, but the Onyx is a tri-brace which is styled more along the lines of current paragliders. This more-eliptical design will have greater efficiency than what is currently available, thus giving additional glide at the same airspeed. That is what is needed to snatch the swoop distance crown, and as a factory pilot I will be right at the front of the line to get mine. I am very excited.

[ramon 0]

I wonder if the Onyx will be tricky to dial in like a VX or will it be easier like the cobalt. From what I understand it will have a very high aspect ratio (openings?)
I am very anxious to see another parachute as top dog, Xaos is getting some recognition from some limited initial success, but the Icarus pilots are some of the best in the world and will be hard to beat even with a slightly technologically superior design.
good luck I'll stick to my Vengeance for the time being.
ramon

[rogue108 0]

If I am correct, the comp model has a higher aspect ratio as compared to the stock Cobalt and as Chuck has already said more of the nose is sewn shut. The higher aspect ratio is what gives it that bottom end and increased turning speed. The nose being more closed increases speeds. I think that is correct.

[cobaltdan 0]

the current onyx is a design excersise and is to be a swoop competition canopy only.
it has an aspect ratio of 3.5 ! the planform is an ellipse, with varying angle of attack and
inflated stabilizors. this canopy will probably set a new mark with a 400' swoop.
several weeks ago we hit 365' with a competition cobalt.
we will probably not release this canopy for sale. we will however release a tribrace
based on the proven cobalt planform.
as fas as the xaos,
icarus is in financial trouble, fernando (simsa)majority stock holder in icarus)) announced that he would pull the plug if icarus was not profitable by the end of the year. two weeks later george (precision)minority stock holder in icarus, and u.s. sub-contract manufacturer of icarus canopies)) announced that they developed their own tricell canopies. the ones i have seen at the paragames and the pondswoop nationals are identical copies of the icarus canopies (planform and airfoil). they made slight construction changes and switched to velocity design nose inlets. nothing new in anyway. george is banking on a stategic move to ensure that icarus is a sinking ship and that precision will be the one to step into their shoes.
normally, i would never pass on gossip, but this was told to me first hand by one of the principals.
sincerely,
dan
atair

[cobaltdan 0]

onyx picture attached

[prost 0]

Dan,
Are there any demo competition Cobalts?

[ramon 0]

Very Cool!
ramon

[cobaltdan 0]

we are not putting out competition cobalts demo's.
currently, we are only allowing them out at the pro-level.
the market is so small for canopies like the vx, velocity, cc
and the potential for harm is so high, when piloted by someone not experienced enough.
sincerely,
dan
atair

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I put about 15 jumps on the Competiton Cobalt 65 this weekend at Raeford. Very fast, but incredibly manageable is how I rate it at this point. Openings were mostly fast, but not hard by any means. Never had a single off heading opening. The parachute loves to fly straight and is not "twitchy" at all. Toggle range is long, just the way I like it. Turns were not radical and the parachute took long, carving dives afterward which built incredible speed. Front riser pressure it heavy and one-riser dives spin around much faster than a standard Cobalt. I found myself initiating my turn quite a bit lower than I assumed would be neccesary. This after finding I had enough time to throw a 540 from the same altitude I would normally do a 180 with under my pre-Howard-mod 75. It was a blast to fly and just cut through the wind. I came in very fast under the Competition 65 and got lots of usable lift which means I had some very long surfs. I really like the main and I will be competing at Perris in November with this Comp 65 in at least the speed event.
Of other interest: I dropped my stock 75 off with Joe Bennett while I was at the Pond Swoop Nationals. He performed the "Howard mod" to it last week and got it back to me before this weekend. This parachute has now been transformed into an absolute rocketship! This is exactly what I was looking for. The parachute now has a greater forward speed, dives steeper and maintains it's speed much better in the dive while not sacrificing anything in the lift department. I am completely stoked. The other change is in the openings. The nose is closed off and crossbraced with triangular pieces on the loaded ribs. This creates a much longer snivel, but has not produced any off-heading openings or spins. Stock Cobalts (as well as Heatwaves, Alphas, and some other mains) that have had more of the cells closed off just would not open. That problem was addressed with the Competition Cobalt by cutting back the bottom skin and moving the A-lines back a bit, creating a sort of zig-zag as Dan described.
Both of these parachutes are terribly fun and offer substantial performance benefits in the hands of a seasoned swooper. Someone a few weeks ago even went as far as saying that he didn't think Cobalts should not be made without the mod. I have to disagree. The stock Cobalt is by far the better choice for someone wanting great performance without sacrifing safety. The parachute can be very mild when loaded lightly, and quite competitive when loaded heavily and piloted by the right people. Conversely, I wouldn't consider lending either of the competition mains I currently jump to anyone other than a pro-level swooper with extensive HP canopy experience.
Chuck

[xAer0 0]

Hi there Chuck,
Would you consider a safer/better (it's definitely cheaper) option for someone flying a stock Cobalt and is ready to downsize one size, to send his Cobalt for a Howard mod?If let's say he flys a stock Cobalt at 1.3:1, how would a Howard mod affect performance at such loadings?Would it be equal to downsizing a bit, or will the performance grow beyond a casual jumper's abilities?Or will there be any structrural and stability issues?
Cause if doing this mod a low wing loadings can add reasonable performance, then , for $150, the Cobalt can become a real bargain, since it's like buying two canopies for the price of one!
So , what's your opinion?
Don't pull low, unless you are afraid of heights!
Tefkros

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

Would you consider a safer/better (it's definitely cheaper) option for someone flying a stock Cobalt and is ready to downsize one size, to send his Cobalt for a Howard mod?

Absolutely. That, or find someone to trade down with. I went through six mains last year and bought/sold about six more for my wife and some friends. I was always able to find ways of making seemingly-tricky three-way trades work.
A Howard Mod Cobalt has the forward velocity and dive of a one-size smaller Cobalt, but with increased bottom-end power and float. I don't have any idea what one loaded that lightly would do, but I am assuming that it would react similarly. $150 is a cheap price to end up with a drastically-different handling main. Howard is not in Atlanta anymore. Joe Bennett at Skydive Monroe is the man doing it now. Look him up at their website if you are interested in this. The Competition Cobalt will probably never be made in sizes bigger than 120 (for Eric Butts), but you never know what Dan will do. Right now, these are the only sizes in existence: 65,75,85, and 95. Eric's 120 was not yet shipped as of two weekends ago.
Chuck

[xAer0 0]

Thanx Chuck...
I don't plan on going to anything like 120 for several hundred jumps...i was actually considering a stock Cobalt 150 @ 1.3:1 when I have around 100 jumps if I feel it will be safe enough for the experience level, and then when I have the skill to downsize,put on a Howard mod instead...if the Cobalt is just as safe as you make it seem, and react good to a Howard mod , then it could beat cheaper mains long term!
I guess we'll have to check it out...
Dan, do you have any opinions on that?
Don't pull low, unless you are afraid of heights!
Tefkros

[cobaltdan 0]

i finished eric's cc 120 on friday.
he jumped it cold (no practice) in the sky's the limit swoop competition last weekend.
the course was downwind and during the morning competition it was 25 knott winds plus gusts.
it was pretty unbelievable. a 200' water course up a 5' elevation (water was very low) to a 80' land course. 20' past was the treeline. everyone setup short first few runs and blew mach speed through half the water course past the land blades through the plastic tape fence, skidding on their butt into the trees...
eric and jay (flys a vx) quickly rose to the front of the pack and dueled it our for
first place. the competition carried over until sunday. i had to leave so i didn't see who finally took first place. i called the dz and they told me there were still going over footage and that it came down to eric or jay and perhaps there would have to be a tie breaker.
eric is awal with a cutie he met. when he turns up i will post the results.
sincerely,
dan
atair

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

he jumped it cold (no practice) in the sky's the limit swoop competition last weekend.

It made me physically ill not to be able to make that meet. You know how much I love to compete. Bottom line is that I could just not be there after the outrageous expenditure of cash on recent RV and Harley repairs. That being said, I am glad Big Eric was there holding the torch. Jay? You mean Jay Moledski? He jumps a Velocity 84. Or did you mean Jay Beavis? He jumps a Velocity 96. Both are Canadian, but Jay Moledski is the guy you are probably talking about. He is like me; tries to never miss a meet.
Oh yeah, you meant to say AWOL (Absent WithOut Leave).
Chuck
<><>the swoop lord

[cobaltdan 0]

jay moledski...my mistake: a velocity
dan
atair

[alan 1]

Never had any surge or slack on any of my 300+ VX openings. It is an 89 @ about 2.4. Just to lend a little balance to Chucks' post, review the results from the various swoop meets and pay attention to what canopies are consistently winning, it may give a hint as to why Atair is going to release a crossbraced canopy.
alan

[craddock 0]

I have only about 15 jumps on the VX74. I really liked this canopy after it was opened. Openings was not its strong point. It never was intended to be. I can only describe it as "angry" when it opens. Definately a surge. It made my heart race. I started to get used to it just before I broke it. Yes it broke! You must be lucky with yours Alan. They all have there own personality.
Josh

[skymedic 0]

quick question about the VX/FX canopys. are they made for terminal openings or are they only for subterminal hop n pops below 5'000....
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[prost 0]

How did it break?