0
stayhigh

Sigma Tandem Harness fitting.

Recommended Posts

The manual does show the chest strap pretty high, sort of at sport rig chest strap level. Generally instructors on the dz I'm at, do indeed tend to put the chest strap a lot lower.

Ref:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Rigging/INSTRUCT-003-Sigma-Student-Harness-Adjustment-Guide.pdf

Edit:
Who knows, other issues may come into play, such as how one positions the hooks at the shoulders, and how one fits the harness in general. Still, keeping the chest strap low is normal around here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When the harness is well adjust ask your passenger to take both his hands and bring one leg straps at the time as high as possible on his leg. You want to do that on the last adjustment check just before boarding the plane...you will be surprised to see a gap of 2 or 3 inches over there shoulders. That mean the passenger would have be that much lower in the harness during the parachute ride witch is not perfect for the landing and the chest strap will end up in his neck. Yes I follow UPT adjustment but if the chest strap is a bit lower it's not a safety issue. Finally you can always loose that strap on opening.
When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am supposed to, but I find the sigma manual is the wrong way.

I do not see the point in adjusting the leg straps first. Getting the customer to hold the hips in place is unnecessary and promotes ill fitting and uncomfortable harness fitting.

How many tandems do these people actually do when they make up this type of thing?

The leg straps are what I do last.

I can make the entire harness fit the torso of the passenger snugly and comfortably first and then finish off by tightening the leg straps.

It makes no sense to do them first.

I wish UPT would revisit the harnessing technique as some DZ's want to do it by the book exactly.

I have also noticed that UPT examiners do some of the worst harnessing techniques and are some of the worst tandem masters (not all, but many).

I think this really needs addressing. Customers get ill and pass out from ill fitting harnesses and there is a better way to do it than what the manual suggests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you know what your doing when fitting a passenger harness, whether starting from the top down, or bottom up, you should be able to arrive at the same harness point locations. The passenger harness adjustment guide provides a systematic basis to fit the harness, that ensures the critical fitting of the leg straps, belt strap and back strap are properly fitted before the upper harness is fitted and secured. Why? If you adjust the MLW and rear diagonals first, you run the risk of the leg strap junction being too high or too low, and then either ignoring it, or having to readjust the harness.

When a passenger appears to be sitting low in the harness after opening, with the chest strap a little high, its because of 1 of 2 things, possibly both:
1) Bodies are pliable and opening shock causes a sinking into the harness that cannot be fully duplicated on the ground prior to jumping unless you suspend a person in a hanging harness under their full body weight. A good estimate of this is to pick up the passenger by the apex of the leg straps (with their permission and foreknowledge), and shake the harness a little, they will "sink in" to the leg straps a few inches.
2) The main lift web is fitted with the MLW too far forward with a corresponding excess in the rear diagonals, allowing the back pad to rise up as the body sinks into it on opening, like pulling a shirt over the back of your head. If your experiencing this on a regular basis, you may want to revisit your diagonal adjustments and MLW adjustment process.

The people that "make this stuff up" have a dedicated testing facility and dedicated test jumpers, that between sport and tandem testing have made over 45,000+ dedicated test jumps on "these types of things" over the last couple of decades.

It's always fascinating to hear from anonymous posters that know examiners and tandem masters that are the "worst" at what they do, in such broad generalities. Its very easy to cast a negative comment against people in the industry and hide behind anonymity....

My email is [email protected], if you genuinely have a concern about anyone in the tandem industry, examiner or instructor, I would challenge you to own your statements and contact me directly with names, and equally importantly, examples of your concerns.

I'll await your email.
Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Why? If you adjust the MLW and rear diagonals first, you run the risk of the leg strap junction being too high or too low, and then either ignoring it, or having to readjust the harness.



This could be argued for doing them first also. The whole reason I do the torso first is to have the hips in the correct position before tightening the leg straps. Our spines, shoulders and hips are less malleable than our buts and thighs. Especially on larger people.

As you said the end result is what is important. making a one size fits all procedure does not work for everybody.

I think the real issue is that many UPT examiners do not provide adequate training on the harnessing because it seems they too have not been provided adequate training.

I think there should be more emphasis on what a bad technique is, and how to avoid it.

Far too many people have the hips too far back and a long belly band... these people also have the most people passing out and throwing up. Some of these people are UPT examiners.

Also too many people have the belly band and back strap too low which also has the same result and is why I think doing the leg straps first is a bad idea. But this could also be done if it is done in the reverse order as well.

As much as there are different shaped and sized students, there are also different sized instructors.

For the small instructor, they will need the hook further down the back and taller one will not for example.

One size does not fit all when it comes to harnessing.

When one has experience they should be able to make a very small adjustment to the harness from the past jump and it should almost be fitting.

What I tend to see is people undoing the entire harness completely even if the next passenger is much smaller than the previous one.

For me it is far too easy to look at the next passenger assess what adjustments need to be made if any, hang the harness on and make it fit them in the torso first and then do the leg straps last without them having to do anything. Without all this crap dangling down in my way while I do it.

In over 4500 tandems I have only ever had 2 people throw up and they were large fat people (that already had their legs up on landing due to harnessing technique that is contrary to what UPT suggests).

I have only had one sleeper and that was a hungover Irish guy on a strong system.

For some people these are a weekly or even daily issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vision

I wish UPT would revisit the harnessing technique as some DZ's want to do it by the book exactly.



This is the main problem and I don't know what you can do about it in many cases. Some people want to just do as they are told rather than learn how to use the instructions in a manual as a starting point to perfect what works best for them and their students.

We should not deviate much from the manual as far as the final fit, but how you get there does allow for some variation in procedures.

If you are putting a student in a harness that you have just used on another student that is very close to the same size and shape, it is silly to extend all of the straps.

Here is an idea. As part of the (USPA) instructor renewal requirements to have an instructional rating seminar each year, how about the tandem instructors at the DZ get together and learn from each other some of the finer points in adjusting a student tandem harness?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You did a great job at creating a UPT tandem student harnessing video. IMO you've gone above and beyond... acting on the need for more precise instruction to be delivered to the masses. However that informative video is not readily available to most TIs or DZs last I checked.

TomNoonan


The people that "make this stuff up" have a dedicated testing facility and dedicated test jumpers, that between sport and tandem testing have made over 45,000+ dedicated test jumps on "these types of things" over the last couple of decades.



Those same people do a terrible job at presenting the information they've found to those who need to hear it. UPT's current Harnessing Guide .pdf file is ambiguous and in some places contradictory... saying one thing to do, yet showing another method in pictures. Which should it be here... do as UPT says or do as UPT shows?

[inline harness_guide_differences.jpg]

In my experience if you harness any guy with hip junctions in the center like that, you get two things: "Ow, my balls hurt" and "No, sorry, I can't lift my legs any further than this". For wider people I do move those junctions farther to the side for better security and containment. However for anyone else I find the center of body is poor placement yielding unsatisfactory results for me and my student.

Yes, you can spend a while explaining to the student "If you lift your legs and move the leg straps forward it'll be more comfortable and you'll be able to lift your legs further". But with many it does take a while to get there. I'd rather those legs be able to lift as soon as I ask. I have more important things to do with my time under canopy than to spend it dealing with annoyed people who can't lift their legs. If it can be done correctly from the start, as shown in the original Harnessing Guide, then why not do it that way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stayhigh

I just wanted to focus on the chest strap location on the manual........



If it could be broken down to one simple statement, such as "Place the chest strap so it covers both nipples", it would be awesome. But the chest strap will always move some when the canopy opens, and the amount it moves depends on how all the adjustments below the chest strap were made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I just adjust all tandem student harnesses in accordance with the 2008 Strong manual.
I get much better results when I position the hip junction at the front of their hips.
That foolishness about asking students to adjust their own harnesses - while hanging under canopy - is soooooo last century!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Here is an idea. As part of the (USPA) instructor renewal requirements to have an instructional rating seminar each year, how about the tandem instructors at the DZ get together and learn from each other some of the finer points in adjusting a student tandem harness?



This should be done in conjunction with the manual and whatever resources the DZ has available, for example, if you have videos of well fitted versus poorly fitted harnesses and the resulting free fall and landing postures.

Most importantly, I highly encourage tandem instructors to log these meetings in their log books, for example:
"Passenger Harness Fitting Review - DZ One skydiving center, June 1st, 2014" and have it signed off by another instructor, or if possible a local attending examiner. If you ever have to prove your currency having a series of logged and signed off entries shows a pattern of professional continuing education, if your ever called to defend what you do.
Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you. That video was something that we put a lot of work into. The problem was unforeseen, timing.....It was completed just before the Y strap became mandatory on all passenger harnesses, so I am reshooting the standard male and standard female body positions, so we can release it with all of the harnesses including Y-straps.

We are working on better presentation methods for sure. I'm a dedicated resource in this area now.
Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

We are working on better presentation methods for sure. I'm a dedicated resource in this area now.



In that case I will also point out that I agree with whoever suggested that the hips junctions of the harness should be forward of center for larger people also... For everybody!

This helps them lift their legs for landing.

When someone connects the customer and tightens the side attachments, the hip junctions then end up rear of the hips (if donned like UPT suggests) and the belly band is usually loosened further due to it digging into their fat guts.

The technique suggested in the photos seems like poor technique for these reasons and amending this should be considered for the benefit of all the 'larger' people out there.

The harnessing on the ground should anticipate where the straps will be after being attached and tightened (and loosened again in relation to the belly band) and where they will be once people have sunk into the harness after opening...

It looks to me as if the harnessing demonstrated in the video and pictures assumes this positioning will be the same while in freefall and under parachute.

It most definitely is not.

Great to see this is a liquid thing and UPT is adapting to the experiences out in the field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
all this seems kinda pointless if nothing is going to be said about TI's making adjustments once inside the plane. Seems like everyone out there (including several IE's teaching this) are doing a half decent job of harnessing the students, but prior to exit cinching down the MLW all the way, then the same with the laterals. This does several things, none of which are good. Basically it brings the hip junction up way to high, increasing the "need" for y straps. Also, it locks you student in the fetal position making your job harder. I don't understand why this has become common place and an accepted practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dokeman

all this seems kinda pointless if nothing is going to be said about TI's making adjustments once inside the plane. Seems like everyone out there (including several IE's teaching this) are doing a half decent job of harnessing the students, but prior to exit cinching down the MLW all the way, then the same with the laterals. This does several things, none of which are good. Basically it brings the hip junction up way to high, increasing the "need" for y straps. Also, it locks you student in the fetal position making your job harder. I don't understand why this has become common place and an accepted practice.



I have heard of this before, and I understand what you are saying. But here is another explanation for that which perhaps makes it seem not so bad.

Perhaps some/many TIs don't really tighten the harnesses as much as they should on the ground, because they think they are making the student uncomfortable. Then they wait to tighten them until right before hookup. Maybe. Maybe not.

In general, I don't think student harness are as tight as they should be, particularly the leg straps. Think of how many handcam videos you see with a huge gap at the shoulders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree Dokeman. The passenger should be ready to Skydive when they board the plane. I see way too many TI's tightening the harness to excess prior to exit. Then complain because their student goes fetal. This is gear fear in my opinion. They do not trust the properly fitted harness will do its job. Of course there are those as Peek mentioned that DO NOT properly fit the harness before boarding and this is just a foolish practice and needs to be addressed as well.

As far as the manual goes it does what it needs in giving the basic adjustment principles for the harness and if you are doing tandems you really should be able to problem solve each application of the harness from the information supplied. If you cant then maybe tandem Instructor is the wrong title for you.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I see way too many TI's tightening the harness to excess prior to exit. Then complain because their student goes fetal. This is gear fear in my opinion.



While I half agree with you, I somehow find it hard to believe that you will crank the harness into a large woman's thighs (for example) when you put the harness on.

I have come across a couple of die hard 'don't do any adjustments in the plane' types and honestly I am usually horrified when they come into land with some larger people.

Just doing the arching position on exit is enough for the harness to 'sink into fat' and then leaving the harness loose.

Can you please post a picture of you coming into land with a person with fat legs please so we can see what I am talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dokeman

all this seems kinda pointless if nothing is going to be said about TI's making adjustments once inside the plane. Seems like everyone out there (including several IE's teaching this) are doing a half decent job of harnessing the students, but prior to exit cinching down the MLW all the way, then the same with the laterals. This does several things, none of which are good. Basically it brings the hip junction up way to high, increasing the "need" for y straps. Also, it locks you student in the fetal position making your job harder. I don't understand why this has become common place and an accepted practice.



I learned to adjust the harness prior to boarding for a secure fit, then in the plane, I don't tighten anything more than 2". Not that I think the harness is loose, but it does make the people feel a little more secure that they're not going to fall out. Also I end up adjusting the belly and back straps after I have the laterals hooked up to even it out a little bit (so the belly strap isn't super tight and the back strap is loose).

I too see people crank the MLW down in the plane and I never saw a reason to do it myself.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave 235lbs
http://youtu.be/aWB-6lUde9I



Take your pick Im always open for suggestions. I do make small adjustments on the top if needed after hook up but never more than 2" Yes I fit the legs to thick people on the ground and do not get any more movement than the guys who tighten them everything up before exit. I make them give a really wide stance and place the harness in their crotch and make it firm. If they sink far enough down in a properly fitted harness that it is dangerous they were probably to big to safely skydive in the first place.

See more videos here

https://www.youtube.com/user/MyFloridaSkydiving

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi,

Dave was not really a great example as he had a guts, but was otherwise a solid guy, all his extra weight was there.

I did not have a long look through all the videos but found Lissette by glancing at the thumbnails, I could tell she has a 'softer' bottom.

Why could I tell? because the buckles were about 25cm above her shoulders, screenshot attached.

She was obviously reasonably fit, her bottom was not that large and she could lift her legs easily enough probably because you positioned the hips well and she was reasonably fit.

Some people are not and they will sink into the harness more than Lissette did.

Nobody can tell me that there needs to be this much space in the harness, and when they hang low like that they can be much more prone to injuring themselves.

about 2-3 inches taken from the back diagonals and 2-3 inches from the main lift web while attaching in the plane would have had lissette sat much more nicely in the harness and her bottom a few inches higher off the ground.

This is how I would do it anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0