AFF student horseshoe mal! ..THAt was fun!

[davelepka 4]

Quote

So you are saying there is no possible situation where a handcam would be a hinderance to a TI who had a malfunction?

I didn't mention anything about a malfunction one way or another.

I limited my discussion to items relevant to AFF handcam, as that was the topic of discussion. I stated my problems with the idea, and why I didn't feel those ideas applied to tandem handcam.

Just to play along though, you are right that an AFF handcam does have the benefit of not adding any risk to the student if the wearer should have a malfunction.

[steveorino 7]

So what you are saying there are two different rules in regards to students safety. A tandem doesn't get same "remove as much risk as possible" as the AFF? Even though the handcam could pose a possible risk to the tandem's safety because it could possibly hinder the TI's ability to perform in every given situation, it is ok. But with the AFF student it isn't?

steveOrino

[davelepka 4]

Again, I said nothing of the sort.

In regards to the tandem application of the handcam, I don't see it as being that much of hazzard in terms of performing EPs. All other things being equal, the wearing of a handcam shouldn't prohibit one from pulling the handles, and I would be surpirsed to find out that the first guy to jump one didn't put it on beforehand, and pull a bunch of handles on the ground to check it out.

That said, I never voiced concerns over your ability to handle a malfunction while wearing your handcam. Sure, it does add something to the EP party, but it has been proven 100's or 1000's of times that handles can be pulled with a glove on.

The problem with AFF handcam is the additional situations you might be presetned with above and beyond what you could expect on a tandem. For example, a tandem student could not throw a PC udner their arm, and an AFF student could.

Of course, in this case, everything turned out fine. What I'm saying is that for you to continue on thinking things will always be fine is a mistake. As an AFF instructor, you're called upon to do different things with your hands than a TI, things that will make the video of a much lower quality than a TI, and things that might make the handcam a serious snag hazzard between you and your AFF student.

Let's face it, when you have to reach into the pack tray, or start grabbing on to lines, things have already gone very, very wrong. For you to count on things 'just working out' at that point in terms of your glove and whatever you're reaching into is just dumb.

None of this is mentioning the fact that the glove has got to make your hand signals less-clear. Some students have trouble getting them through their thick skulls with a naked human hand (as they would have seen all day during the training), and now they are have several 'devices' waived in their face.

I have also not mentioned the eventuality where you end up losing your student and re-docking on the oppostie side. I know you said you don't wear the glove on main side, but sometimes main side is where you end up, handcam or not. Ever had a student grab your left hand or altimeter on a practice touch or the actual pull? I'm sure a bigger target is not going to help.

You're fighting a losing battle here. There's no good reason for what you're doing. Why not put it up on your lid? It would shoot the student then, and for the whole skydive.

How about chest mount, like an altimeter? It might also shoot up your nose, but it would give an angle of the students body position, and be a good training tool.

Mabye a mudflap mount, again, pointing upwards which translates to toward-the-student while you are belly to earth.

The point is that a TI only has one choice, they cannot mount the camera on their body as it wouldn't get the student in frame. They don't want to use a permanent outrigger for safety reasons, so they use their arm, which in the 'controlled' environment of a tandem (compared to AFF) has proven to be workable. You as an AFF I, on the other hand, have other, much safer and more benign options, and you should pick one of them and go with it.

[steveorino 7]

Ok Dave, thanks for being more civil. It goes a lot farther with me than asking "who am I trying to impress ..."

You made some good points, and I have not thought out me flipping sides (I have done that) and the student grabbing my handcam (They haven't done that but they sure have grabbed my alti before) Reaching into the pack tray isn't something I have had to do in my first 100 AFFs, but I can see where it may present a problem. While I think if forced the velcro would release the camera, I can see where there is a possibility where it might not. I think I may just keep the GoPro on the head.. That being said, I'm glad I got away with it one time because the still shot was awesome.

Thanks for the input!

steveOrino

[airtwardo 6]

Not an AFFI..but just curious, why not just bolt the GoPro to your head?

I've also seen a nifty chest strap mount that would also keep the paws free of hardware, kind of like the old V shaped altimeter cushions, with a wide angle lens it seemed to get some usable footage.

I'm just an old school fool that doesn't like anything on my hands...makes it easier to pull them out of what ever mess I seem to get into.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[steveorino 7]

Yeah, after think about digging in tray and pulling out lines, I'm rethinking my handcam. I think I prolly will stick with the GoPro head mount, unless I'm not wearing a helmet .... oh, boy, here we go again!

steveOrino

[tonyhays 86]

I used to not wear a helmet for AFF, until my second one. The student was zoning out at pull time, I gave him alti signal..nothing...pull signal....instant pull. But as he reached back to pull, he punched me in the face hard enough to make me see stars.

After the debrief, I went straight to the gear store and bought a full face helmet. Have worn it ever since.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[steveorino 7]

Yeah, I have been punched in the kisser before. Now I just duck!

steveOrino

[Canadianfella 0]

Quote

Yeah, after think about digging in tray and pulling out lines, I'm rethinking my handcam. I think I prolly will stick with the GoPro head mount, unless I'm not wearing a helmet .... oh, boy, here we go again!

I'm not sure if there's a rule in the US for instructors to wear helmets, but in Canada, all coaches/instructors (while acting as such) must wear a helmet...

I've seen too many students see a more senior jumper (or instructor) do something and think "geez, if he can do that, so can i..." I have also heard conversations on the dz of "well, that guy (instructor) still wears a helmet on every jump... he's got thousands... he may be on to something..."

The impression you leave upon your students may be more than you think. To each their own, but perhaps something to keep in mind!

[steveorino 7]

I alway do on AFF, in my photo Stooby doesn't have one because the Protec broke on jump run and he gave the student his. On Tandems .... I do except in hot July/August days.

steveOrino

[Ron 7]

Quote

So you are saying there is no possible situation where a handcam would be a hinderance to a TI who had a malfunction?

I don't think that is what he said. At least I didn't read that in his response.

Quote

So what you are saying there are two different rules in regards to students safety.

No, but a Tandem and an AFF are two totally different situations.

For example AFF students are required to wear a helmet... Tandem students are not.

Quote

Even though the handcam could pose a possible risk to the tandem's safety because it could possibly hinder the TI's ability to perform in every given situation, it is ok. But with the AFF student it isn't?

In the Tandem jump there is minimal risk of any type of entanglement since the TI has total control over both the camera AND the deployment.

In AFF, you only have control over your deployment (as evidenced by your own picture). You might end up on the other side. You might have to "assist" with the deployment by grabbing the students PC or bridle....etc.

So they are not the same. In addition, you yourself have said that you do not get really good footage with the HC on AFF jumps.

So when you compare the benefits between the two to the risks between the two... There is enough of a difference that it seems by many to be a bad idea.

Now, you are a smart enough guy, and it is YOUR ass on the line. So personally, I don't care. But, I don't see much benefit either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[baronn 111]

I back SteveO on this one. Show me 5 instructors/skydivers that agree entirely on ANYTHING about this sport and I will die happy. The hyper criticism that is constantly delved out is incredible. It's not done to improve anything(though it is often hidden behind that), it is only to feed the "I am greater than thou" attitude and to feed their own inflated egos. Thanks for posting your reply. I couldn't have come up with a better way to reaffirm SO's point if I tried.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Show me 5 instructors/skydivers that agree entirely on ANYTHING about this sport and I will die happy. The hyper criticism that is constantly delved out is incredible. It's not done to improve anything(though it is often hidden behind that), it is only to feed the "I am greater than thou" attitude and to feed their own inflated egos

Let's say that's true, does that decrease the value of the information?

Let's assume I just want to one-up the guy, and prove that I have the better way to skin the cat. The thing is, there are 10 guys (at least) just waiting for me to mis-step, and jump all over my shit for posting something that isn't exactly right, so I have to be extra careful with what I say, how I say it, and from where I draw my conclusions.

Of course, if a guys tries to give me the business, and what he says isn't 100% infalable, I'll turn the tables right back on him and set his shit straight.

Anyway you cut it, in the end, the information is correct. It would be different if a group of us were working together to push one agenda or another. If we were to gang up on a guy and get down on his idea in sufficient numbers, he might lose interest in fighting it, and just let it go, with the 'group' agenda left standing in the end, correct or not.

But that's not the case. We are all independent of each other, so when an idea is agreed upon by the vast majority, or in some cases, not contested, it's generally because it's the right idea.

Let's face it, there are guys out there that would love to prove me wrong any chance they get, and sometimes they do. I don't mind it, I welcome it, becuase it's what keeps me honest and making sure I get shit rigth the first time. It forces me to really think through what I'm saying before I say it, and sometimes I learn things that way, and sometimes other people learn things once I do get something posted.