Are Coaches the Weakest Link?

[Bill_K 0]

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So you think the FAA has it wrong too?

(since everyone who responded to me snipped or ignored the part about the FAA I'll repeat it. If you want to become a certified flying instructor (CFI) you have to take and pass a course on pedagogy UNLESS you are a professional teacher. The FAA collects a lot of data on what it's CFIs do, including follow up after a former student has an accident. Apparently the FAA has not identified a problem with this policy.)

One thing that seems to be missing here though, to get the CFI you MUST pass the practical with an examiner. During that time he can have you do just about anything. I promise you that if the examiner is worth his salt, he'll know if you can teach or not, regardless of if you were or are a professional teacher before sitting for the CFI/I ratings.

[Bill_K 0]

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"Is someone with 100 jumps really experienced enough to deal with unliscensed jumpers?"

At 100 jumps I personally did not feel ready. I was a current CFI/I at the time, but with only 100 jumps and not a lot more still, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm wanting to take the coach course. Was I a bad or unsafe skydiver at 100 jumps? Shrug, many of those that I jump with were encouraging me to get my rating back then. I think I can pass the course now, but more importantly, I think I can help others become, 1. safer, and 2. better skydivers now. Back then I don't think I knew how much I did not know about the sport. Now with a little more time in the sport, I realize there there is MUCH that I don't know, but I also know how to go about finding and learning those things.

[Bill_K 0]

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That makes percect sense for an evaluation. But where does a prospective coach go for the experience? Where is the 'roadmap', if you will, for becoming a coach then instructor?

Try this, Saturday night (tomorrow night) after jumping is done for the day, go grab two beers from the normal storage location. Then go track down one of the instructors at your local DZ and start talking to them. Ask questions aimed at learning, like at my level, what kinds of things should I be working on. (Then shut up and let them talk!!) Next Saturday, pick another instructor and repeat. Oh and work on what they say. I'll bet the next time you go back, they'll be more than willing to give you a few pointers. Heck every now and then they get to do a normal fun jump and you never know, they may come invite you to jump with them. (disclaimer, if your instructor like Diet Coke instead of beer, that might work a little better. )

[kallend 1,623]

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So you think the FAA has it wrong too?

(since everyone who responded to me snipped or ignored the part about the FAA I'll repeat it. If you want to become a certified flying instructor (CFI) you have to take and pass a course on pedagogy UNLESS you are a professional teacher. The FAA collects a lot of data on what it's CFIs do, including follow up after a former student has an accident. Apparently the FAA has not identified a problem with this policy.)

One thing that seems to be missing here though, to get the CFI you MUST pass the practical with an examiner. During that time he can have you do just about anything. I promise you that if the examiner is worth his salt, he'll know if you can teach or not, regardless of if you were or are a professional teacher before sitting for the CFI/I ratings.

But the USPA rated course director is supposed to evaluate skills too, so that's not a difference at all.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[timuuu 0]

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I strongly suspect you would find, as I did, that what you hear about are the rudiments of a few of the things you have been doing for the past 20 years, and nothing more. It is, after all, a *BASIC* course designed specifically for *NOVICES* and lasting less than one day, not a continuing education course designed for those who HAVE been teaching for 20 years already.

I found that the section of *basic* training on how to teach theory was much more than that. Throughout that entire section was sprinkled practical application information related specifically to skydiving.

Had you elected to audit that section, you would have missed all that practical application information.

If one is insulted for having been asked to cover "known" material, maybe an over-active ego plays a large part in one's life.

Maybe I should be insulted when the bigway captain asks me to prove myself on smaller ways first after I've already done tons of them. I dunno.

Maybe I should have been insulted when my FJC instructor asked me prove myself on PLFs even though I had extensive training and practice before the FJC. I dunno.

I think anybody who would turn a "professional educator" loose on a skydiving student without proving his mettle is freakin' crazy.
I think the FAA is crazy for exempting them from its normal requirements.

How did we get off on this topic anyway?

Coaches? Weakest link?
No. DZOs are the weakest link. THEY are the ones who allow the "weakest link" to operate. Some simply for the sake of the almighty dollar.

Weak link: Do you REALLY think a 3 -4 hour lesson on teaching techniques enables anyone to be a teacher? I wonder why REAL teacher education programs aren't all over in 4 hours if that's all it takes? I guess those universities are taking people's money under false pretenses.

I'm sure Aggiedave, with that 3 hour course (taught by a skydiver) under his belt, is a far better educator than someone with 30 years full time teaching experience behind them.

Yep.

Not sure who is teaching the course you are seeing, but as a course director, I CERTAINLY cannot teach all the education information in less than 20 hours of instruction (8am-10pm, 8am-noon, + evaluations) and have the candidates properly teach what I want them to teach. Candidates in education get the info more quickly, but I have yet to have any candidate with that background tell me they learned nothing sitting in on the course...

[billvon 2,400]

>At 100 jumps I personally did not feel ready.

At just over 100 jumps I was putting out static line students and jumping with freefall students. Was I ready? Looking back, not really. (Of course, at that time I figured I knew everything.)

>Now with a little more time in the sport, I realize there there is MUCH that
>I don't know, but I also know how to go about finding and learning those
>things.

Yep. It takes a lot of time in this sport to even realize what you don't know. I now have enough experience to know that I don't know all that much.

[Bill_K 0]

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>Now with a little more time in the sport, I realize there there is MUCH that
>I don't know, but I also know how to go about finding and learning those
>things.

Yep. It takes a lot of time in this sport to even realize what you don't know. I now have enough experience to know that I don't know all that much.

Dam Bill, that's saying something, 16 years and 5500+ and you still say that... I hope that I'm fortunate enough to have as long a skydiving career...

[Deisel 35]

This thread seems to have taken on a life of it's own. One of the points I was trying to raise in the OP was that many newly liscensed jumpers often find themselves doing nothing but solos, not really learning anything. Could coaches possibly be used as a bridge between AFF 'normal' jumping (with groups of people)?

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[pilotdave 0]

I absolutely think so. New A-licensed jumpers that have gone through the full ISP coaching program are soooooo much better than students that took a 7-level AFF program and then went off on their own. They learn things now on coach jumps that I learned sporadically though my first 100 or 200 jumps. No, they don't become experts in 18 jumps or so. But they have a much better foundation now, which makes it easier for them to find people that will jump with them later on. They also know a lot more of the experienced jumpers (their coaches), which helps them get introduced to people they can jump with when they get licensed.

AFF teaches survival skills. Coaching teaches RW skills. It works.

Dave

[Andy9o8 0]

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I absolutely think so. New A-licensed jumpers that have gone through the full ISP coaching program are soooooo much better than students that took a 7-level AFF program and then went off on their own. They learn things now on coach jumps that I learned sporadically though my first 100 or 200 jumps. No, they don't become experts in 18 jumps or so. But they have a much better foundation now, which makes it easier for them to find people that will jump with them later on. They also know a lot more of the experienced jumpers (their coaches), which helps them get introduced to people they can jump with when they get licensed.

AFF teaches survival skills. Coaching teaches RW skills. It works. Dave

I agree with your points; but FWIW, finances as a factor can't be ignored. Especially with the high per-jump cost of AFF, a lot of young, cash-poor novices, given the options of going solo or paying for coach jumps, will let their wallet make the decision. For some, it may make the difference between affording a jump at all, or not.

AFF, coach jumps, tunnel time, etc. are all great ways to learn quickly. They're also very costly.

[popsjumper 2]

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a lot of young, cash-poor novices, given the options of going solo or paying for coach jumps, will let their wallet make the decision. For some, it may make the difference between affording a jump at all, or not.

...and the difference in having the knowledge and skills to save their ass if need be.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Deisel 35]

That's exactly I'm of the opinion that a good coach should also be a decent belly flier first. At 100 jumps I was just figuring out how to not 'go low' on every jump.
And there is also the matter of having the ability to match the inconsistent fall rate of someone that has not learned how to control their body. Im concerned that I could end up 'cheating' someone out of their jump if I'm not able to stay with them throughout the dive. It takes a lot of jumps to be able to accurately adjust fall rate and be there on every jump.

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[ozzy13 0]

No one said that you have get a CR at 100 jumps.( Not directing at you per say) That is just the min. to get the rating. It goings back to the JM rating and how it use to work. Talk to some of the old timers at your DZ and they will tell you how it use to be. Most people don't get there CR at a 100 jumps. There are a few that do. They are natural in the air and good for them.. The OP is asking if they are the weakest link. They are a link in a system. If there is a weak part in that system they should fix the system.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[dorbie 0]

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We're all sorry. We all know that you're the best teacher to ever have lived.

Don't know about THAT...

I wasn't going to mention it, but since YOU bring it up, I am the person who was chosen as the mentor for new teaching assistants AND new assistant professors, and I do have 5 "Excellence in Teaching" awards - two more than anyone else in the 115 year history of our school.

http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Form_USPAWaiverRequest.pdf

[jvair 0]

A coach teaches a lot more than two skills, if you think that is all they do then perhaps you should read up in the SIMs manual and see what a thorough and knowledgeable coach would(or in some cases should) teach each of his or her students on each catagory.

The skills ARE easy to teach, but can you teach in a manner so that your student truely understands how to perform those skills? The bottom line is student understanding. If they dont get it, then you need to look at what you did as their coach and perhaps reevaluate your techniques and explain it in a different way.

Above average flying skills are a MUST if you want your coaching to be productive - most students are unpredictable fliers in the air and in order for the coach jump to be productive you(the coach) have to be able to stay relative in order to use those observational skills.

Are coaches the weakest link in the chain? Not exactly. Yes, there are good and bad coaches, just as with everything else in this sport. There are good and bad AFF-I, Tan - I, course directors, etc... but the bottom line is if we don't help each other out then things wont change.

Is 100 jumps enough to get a rating? With the above average flying skills, an open mind, and seeking out the help when you need it, absolutely.

Instead of asking if the coaches are the weakest link, why not step up and offer some advice if you think they need it instead of letting them struggle and "screw up" new students???