hillson 0 #26 February 28, 2013 Your situation - just like the Mullins's kid - is different. For the average Joe off the street 18 is 18. It is funny the way that in court a lawyer can turn a mere "recommendation" issued by the world's largest proponent of sport skydiving into a "rule." A GMDZ losing "sponsorship or GM status (it can't be "shut down" by the USPA)" is hardly the concern - liability is. If someone really wants to "jump" under 18 1) go to one of the few places in the US that is comfortable doing it or 2) go overseas. Otherwise...wait until 18 like everybody else. I don't really see what the big deal is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #27 February 28, 2013 Yes that is true. But special exceptions can be made where no waiver is signed and in that case state law has no limitations. The question asked was if there was law. Playing semantics by bringing up waiver issues is besides the point. It is true most dz have said 18 because of waiver issues but the question still was weather there was state or federal laws governing the age limits and the fact is, there are none. It doesn't matter if you're a lawyer. Passing a BAR doesn't mean you know everything about law. I know people who are not bar certified who could talk circles around most lawyers on laws. With the Internet the title of lawyer means very little.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #28 February 28, 2013 You're probably right that there is not a law in any state that explicitly makes it illegal to make a skydive if you are under the age of 18. But I also don't think anyone was trying to argue that. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #29 February 28, 2013 QuoteIn the USA, age limits are state laws, not national. Age of majority varies from state to state...with most states being 18 years of age. This is why I answered it. Because somebody was trying to argue that it is governed by state law.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyH 0 #30 February 28, 2013 Was just trying to set the information straight. Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #31 February 28, 2013 In fairness, I need to stand partly corrected for using imprecise language that I now realize may have given a mistaken impression. In the US, the laws that enable DZs to use signed waivers to defend themselves against lawsuits are the various states' contract laws (which don't allow minors to enter into binding contracts, including waivers), not any federal laws. However, I'm not aware of any federal law, or any state law (although there are 50 states, each of which have their own laws) that set a specific minimum age for skydiving. I also don't think there are any federal regulations that do so; and I'm unaware of any state's regulations that do so (although, again, there are 50 states, each of which has its own regs.) So technically, AFAIK, there's nothing specifically unlawful about a child skydiving in the US. Apologies to anyone if my earlier language seemed to be suggesting anything other than this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #32 February 28, 2013 Quote Apologies to anyone if my earlier language seemed to be suggesting anything other than this. On the other hand, the kid might have a future as a lawyer if he's this argumentative and adept at parsing language at 17. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyH 0 #33 March 1, 2013 Quote Quote Apologies to anyone if my earlier language seemed to be suggesting anything other than this. On the other hand, the kid might have a future as a lawyer if he's this argumentative and adept at parsing language at 17. NOOOOO phahahaha. I have no desire to become a lawyer. Step mom is a lawyer and I saw the hell she went through during the month before the BAR exam. Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydude2000 3 #34 March 1, 2013 Wasn't there information released at one time from the tandem manufacturers about minimum age, too? I don't know if they have the authority to mandate the age of the passengers who use their harnesses, but if it's true that they stipulate a minimum age of 18, wouldn't the TM be risking his rating, and technically, the pilot risking his license, if that rule were bent/broken? No matter what the waiver, or the law says, or what country or state the jump is made in? I don't imagine too many DZOs, TMs or Pilots would be willing to risk that for $300 from a total stranger, compared with the potential liability.PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyH 0 #35 March 1, 2013 The pilot wouldn't get his license yanked for something like a kid jumping. The FAA has no regulations on who can exit an aircraft. Now most dzo wouldn't allow a youngster, who they do not know, jump anyway. Most dzs say 18 because of the waiver but there is nothing unlawful about a Tm getting permission from a Dzo to take, say, his son. And about the tandem manufacturers, on my first jump, Bill Booth was on the load. We were jumping strong equipment. The only thing Booth said was... He asked me (a 6 year old) if I shaved that morning. Haha. So under certain circumstances young kids can jump. There are no laws against it. But it is true that a dz wouldn't allow a young kid who they don't know to Jump because of liability.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydude2000 3 #36 March 1, 2013 From the USPA website re: FAA 'The agency has the authority to impose fines and suspend or revoke certificates it has issued. In the case of a skydiving violation, the FAA can fine the pilot, rigger, jumpers, as well as suspend or revoke the certificates of pilots and riggers.'PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyH 0 #37 March 1, 2013 Can you post the link to that page?Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydude2000 3 #38 March 1, 2013 Coitainly! Nuk Nuk Nuk! http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/FAAUSPA/Overview/tabid/195/Default.aspxPULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyH 0 #39 March 1, 2013 The "violation" that the FAA is referring to in your statement is an "air traffic control for parachuting operations" violation. Nothing to do with age of jumpers. The FAA still has no regulations on who can exit the aircraft. If you go back and read more than just the overview of that section, it states that the USPA collaborate with the FAA to provide a safe jumping environment. FAA controls things like air traffic control, as well as guidelines for equipment while USPA covers most others. The pilot and riggers licenses are not in danger of removal by the FAA just because of a minor exiting the aircraft and the USPA has no authority to revoke a pilots license.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,351 #40 March 2, 2013 Times have changed since you did that tandem. Bill Booth has been sued a lot of times. So he, and all the other US tandem gear manufacturers have mandated that no one under 18 be taken as a student. And since the TI ratings are issued by the manufacturers, they can pull the rating of an instructor who takes a minor up. And that rating is required by the FAA to conduct a legal tandem jump. And further, each owner signs a contract with the manufacturer agreeing to abide by the rules set out by the manufacturer. So if the owner of the tandem rig allows a minor to jump, the manufacturer can demand his rig back, due to violation of the terms of the contract. I don't know the exact details of the contract, I've never seen one. But I know the "no minors" clause is in there. The couple places in the US that allow minors to go on a tandem do so by using gear that doesn't have that contractual restriciton."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyH 0 #41 March 2, 2013 Now this I will not argue with. I absolutely agree with that. But still, the point that I have been trying to make, that everybody keeps playing with, is the legality. Not the technicality.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,061 #42 March 2, 2013 Hi Joey, Quote The only thing Booth said was... He asked me (a 6 year old) if I shaved that morning. But did you ask him if he shaved that morning? JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,061 #43 March 2, 2013 Hi 2000, QuoteWasn't there information released at one time from the tandem manufacturers about minimum age, too? Tandem jumping started almost 30 yrs ago, now. The first jumps were made via exemption to the existing FAR's. It is my understanding that those exemptions ( both Strong's and Booth's ) had a req'ment that no one under 18 yrs of age could jump the rig as a student. That made it the rule of law. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyH 0 #44 March 2, 2013 Quote Hi Joey, Quote The only thing Booth said was... He asked me (a 6 year old) if I shaved that morning. But did you ask him if he shaved that morning? JerryBaumchen We all know the answer to that! Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydude2000 3 #45 March 2, 2013 Thanks Jerry, I couldn't remember, but I meant wasn't there a thread or series of threads recently about the manufacturers changing the waiver with regard specifically to the harnesses or something, in the last year or three? I'm not a TI but vaguely remember reading something about it. But then, I'm getting old PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BigMark 1 #46 March 3, 2013 Bear at Perris was a big dude, I think I became him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shibu 1 #47 March 19, 2013 Quote You know those really whiny kids people bring to the DZ? Get them started as early as possible. lmao Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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JoeyH 0 #30 February 28, 2013 Was just trying to set the information straight. Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #31 February 28, 2013 In fairness, I need to stand partly corrected for using imprecise language that I now realize may have given a mistaken impression. In the US, the laws that enable DZs to use signed waivers to defend themselves against lawsuits are the various states' contract laws (which don't allow minors to enter into binding contracts, including waivers), not any federal laws. However, I'm not aware of any federal law, or any state law (although there are 50 states, each of which have their own laws) that set a specific minimum age for skydiving. I also don't think there are any federal regulations that do so; and I'm unaware of any state's regulations that do so (although, again, there are 50 states, each of which has its own regs.) So technically, AFAIK, there's nothing specifically unlawful about a child skydiving in the US. Apologies to anyone if my earlier language seemed to be suggesting anything other than this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #32 February 28, 2013 Quote Apologies to anyone if my earlier language seemed to be suggesting anything other than this. On the other hand, the kid might have a future as a lawyer if he's this argumentative and adept at parsing language at 17. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #33 March 1, 2013 Quote Quote Apologies to anyone if my earlier language seemed to be suggesting anything other than this. On the other hand, the kid might have a future as a lawyer if he's this argumentative and adept at parsing language at 17. NOOOOO phahahaha. I have no desire to become a lawyer. Step mom is a lawyer and I saw the hell she went through during the month before the BAR exam. Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #34 March 1, 2013 Wasn't there information released at one time from the tandem manufacturers about minimum age, too? I don't know if they have the authority to mandate the age of the passengers who use their harnesses, but if it's true that they stipulate a minimum age of 18, wouldn't the TM be risking his rating, and technically, the pilot risking his license, if that rule were bent/broken? No matter what the waiver, or the law says, or what country or state the jump is made in? I don't imagine too many DZOs, TMs or Pilots would be willing to risk that for $300 from a total stranger, compared with the potential liability.PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #35 March 1, 2013 The pilot wouldn't get his license yanked for something like a kid jumping. The FAA has no regulations on who can exit an aircraft. Now most dzo wouldn't allow a youngster, who they do not know, jump anyway. Most dzs say 18 because of the waiver but there is nothing unlawful about a Tm getting permission from a Dzo to take, say, his son. And about the tandem manufacturers, on my first jump, Bill Booth was on the load. We were jumping strong equipment. The only thing Booth said was... He asked me (a 6 year old) if I shaved that morning. Haha. So under certain circumstances young kids can jump. There are no laws against it. But it is true that a dz wouldn't allow a young kid who they don't know to Jump because of liability.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #36 March 1, 2013 From the USPA website re: FAA 'The agency has the authority to impose fines and suspend or revoke certificates it has issued. In the case of a skydiving violation, the FAA can fine the pilot, rigger, jumpers, as well as suspend or revoke the certificates of pilots and riggers.'PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #37 March 1, 2013 Can you post the link to that page?Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #38 March 1, 2013 Coitainly! Nuk Nuk Nuk! http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/FAAUSPA/Overview/tabid/195/Default.aspxPULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #39 March 1, 2013 The "violation" that the FAA is referring to in your statement is an "air traffic control for parachuting operations" violation. Nothing to do with age of jumpers. The FAA still has no regulations on who can exit the aircraft. If you go back and read more than just the overview of that section, it states that the USPA collaborate with the FAA to provide a safe jumping environment. FAA controls things like air traffic control, as well as guidelines for equipment while USPA covers most others. The pilot and riggers licenses are not in danger of removal by the FAA just because of a minor exiting the aircraft and the USPA has no authority to revoke a pilots license.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #40 March 2, 2013 Times have changed since you did that tandem. Bill Booth has been sued a lot of times. So he, and all the other US tandem gear manufacturers have mandated that no one under 18 be taken as a student. And since the TI ratings are issued by the manufacturers, they can pull the rating of an instructor who takes a minor up. And that rating is required by the FAA to conduct a legal tandem jump. And further, each owner signs a contract with the manufacturer agreeing to abide by the rules set out by the manufacturer. So if the owner of the tandem rig allows a minor to jump, the manufacturer can demand his rig back, due to violation of the terms of the contract. I don't know the exact details of the contract, I've never seen one. But I know the "no minors" clause is in there. The couple places in the US that allow minors to go on a tandem do so by using gear that doesn't have that contractual restriciton."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #41 March 2, 2013 Now this I will not argue with. I absolutely agree with that. But still, the point that I have been trying to make, that everybody keeps playing with, is the legality. Not the technicality.Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,061 #42 March 2, 2013 Hi Joey, Quote The only thing Booth said was... He asked me (a 6 year old) if I shaved that morning. But did you ask him if he shaved that morning? JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,061 #43 March 2, 2013 Hi 2000, QuoteWasn't there information released at one time from the tandem manufacturers about minimum age, too? Tandem jumping started almost 30 yrs ago, now. The first jumps were made via exemption to the existing FAR's. It is my understanding that those exemptions ( both Strong's and Booth's ) had a req'ment that no one under 18 yrs of age could jump the rig as a student. That made it the rule of law. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyH 0 #44 March 2, 2013 Quote Hi Joey, Quote The only thing Booth said was... He asked me (a 6 year old) if I shaved that morning. But did you ask him if he shaved that morning? JerryBaumchen We all know the answer to that! Carpe Diem, even if it kills me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #45 March 2, 2013 Thanks Jerry, I couldn't remember, but I meant wasn't there a thread or series of threads recently about the manufacturers changing the waiver with regard specifically to the harnesses or something, in the last year or three? I'm not a TI but vaguely remember reading something about it. But then, I'm getting old PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigMark 1 #46 March 3, 2013 Bear at Perris was a big dude, I think I became him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shibu 1 #47 March 19, 2013 Quote You know those really whiny kids people bring to the DZ? Get them started as early as possible. lmao Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
