Showing Horror Pictures

[riggerrob 558]

The best instructors tailor stress levels to individual students.
If your first jump course includes a "simulated" stress level far higher than the student has ever experienced before, you will "lose" your students.

It is also important to observe students' response and adjust stress levels to keep students on the edge of their comfort zone.
For example, early in life I learned that the best way to handle school yard fights, etc. was to "stone face" opponents and never show them how I really feel. Several military instructors have mis-read my face and continued to heap stress on me - well above my comfort zone. In the end, I handled malfunctions correctly, but wrote them off as idiots because they made ground training far more miserable than it had to be.

[tkhayes 126]

you guys are kidding right? I thought they were CUSTOMERS, paying a LOT of money to get the thrill of their lives - not someone to be abused by cruel and inhumane skydivers testing their egos.....

sure we need to cover emergencies - what you are suggesting would be akin to pulling someone's air on a scuba dive just to see how they would react. Not everyone reacts the way you want them to - but that does not mean they do something wrong.

would you 'fail' someone on the outcome of your demonstration? If not, then it is probably not worth doing. Just how many scenarios do we need to simulate to make the training effective? We can sit there all day a dream up 'what-ifs'.

training should focus on what students really do (statistically), not what you think they 'might do'

if you are leaving your students in tears, then I would suggest you are doing a very poor job of instructing. This is not NASA, the Boston Marathon, nor the Marines. We serve customers who spend money - lots of money to go skydive.

How about a white pair of shorts, a polo shirt, video training aids, a white classroom, clean restrooms, professional speakers and presentations, a clean demonstration of what they need to do and some rehersals of typical malfunctions, etc.

I would hate to be in your class.

TK

[AFFI 0]

Quote

you guys are kidding right? I thought they were CUSTOMERS, paying a LOT of money to get the thrill of their lives - not someone to be abused by cruel and inhumane skydivers testing their egos.....

sure we need to cover emergencies - what you are suggesting would be akin to pulling someone's air on a scuba dive just to see how they would react. Not everyone reacts the way you want them to - but that does not mean they do something wrong.

would you 'fail' someone on the outcome of your demonstration? If not, then it is probably not worth doing. Just how many scenarios do we need to simulate to make the training effective? We can sit there all day a dream up 'what-ifs'.

training should focus on what students really do (statistically), not what you think they 'might do'

if you are leaving your students in tears, then I would suggest you are doing a very poor job of instructing. This is not NASA, the Boston Marathon, nor the Marines. We serve customers who spend money - lots of money to go skydive.

How about a white pair of shorts, a polo shirt, video training aids, a white classroom, clean restrooms, professional speakers and presentations, a clean demonstration of what they need to do and some rehersals of typical malfunctions, etc.

I would hate to be in your class.

TK

Every now and then I read a posting and copy and paste it into a document that I have to print and re-read in paper from time to time and this is definitely one of them, Thanks TK for sharing your knowledge, experience and perspective based on your many years of experience for which I have a great amount of respect.
Before going any further I will state that I am not being confrontational in the rest of this posting, I am only making some clarifications putting things in context and asking some questions that will create a learning environment for myself and others that take the time to read these postings to better themselves.

As for being professional? (How about a white pair of shorts, a polo shirt, video training aids, a white classroom, clean restrooms, professional speakers and presentations, a clean demonstration of what they need to do and some rehersals of typical malfunctions, etc.)
I totally agree and am.

Being tough? (If you are leaving your students in tears, then I would suggest you are doing a very poor job of instructing)
I have only rattled a couple times this way over my past 5 years of instructing (both “tough guys”) - with only 5 years of experience I am still inexperienced as an instructor and still learning how to treat different individuals. If I am working with a student that is 10 jumps into our 18 jump progression and they still don’t know their malfunctions and everything is a big joke because they know it all and are invincible and not taking any of their training seriously (usually the young testosterone drenched male) then you can bet I am going to get TOUGH on them. “They are paying a lot of money to get the thrill of their lives” indeed, and it is my duty to teach them to jump from an airplane and not get injured or die. I only get tough when certain attitudes dictate that I should, learning when and how to treat each individual has been difficult – the part that comes only with experience and my DZO has been complimentary to the progress I have made in this arena and as always I am eager to learn and become a better instructor that I may be of better service to our clients.

“what you are suggesting would be akin to pulling someone's air on a scuba dive just to see how they would react.”
Not certain I agree with this perspective, this is what we would refer to in the ARMY as a “Live Fire Exercise” - if we were to induce malfunctions in the air, say for instance pack them a line over to see how they would deal with the malfunction in an actual emergency situation then this comment would apply but we simulate on the ground so they are prepared to deal with emergencies in the air. If someone wants to subject themselves to a live fire exercise after they are experienced more power to them – I have practiced flat turns in braked flight low to the ground simulating an emergency evasive maneuver low to the ground after I became proficient higher up. When the time comes when my choices are hitting an obstacle or perform a braked turn hopefully all the practice will pay off and I will be able to land safely without stalling my canopy. “Perform a Braked Approach and Landing” is part of the A License requirements that is a good example of a live fire exercise for skydivers in the progression of obtaining their A License from the USPA.

“would you 'fail' someone on the outcome of your demonstration? If not, then it is probably not worth doing.”
Could you please elaborate on this comment? I am not certain I understand it.

“We can sit there all day a dream up 'what-ifs'.”
Totally agree, that is why some training can take longer than needed or not cover everything that should be covered – that is why we have developed a check list for the FJC so all the necessary material is taught and currently creating Malfunction Tutorials and Dive Flows that coincide with the A License Proficiency card to better increase the instructors effectiveness and efficiency. Professionally outside of skydiving I construct educational learning material so I have been placing my skills at the disposal of my DZO in assisting the creation of our student training manuals and guidelines and I do not get paid for it. My Motivation? Knowledge that comes from others for the content had to be filtered through my brain, so my compensation is the experience and knowledge of others who have many decades in the skydiving arena. I once read that is you wish to become proficient in something, the trick is to find others who are experts in what you wish to learn, then “stand beneath them and catch their drippings”.

“I would hate to be in your class.”
Last year an older gentleman from the UK was in the US on business and I was his instructor from the FJC then 8 Dive Flows into the progression. Very educated and his background where “extreme” activity was extensive with over a decade experience as a Commercial Deep Sea Diver, on the Nautical Emergency Rescue Team for decades and climbs the largest ice glaciers and mountains in the world, his personal photo album was amazing! It looked like the freaking National Geographic. He sent our DZO a letter telling him that of all his years of being subjected to specialized training in potentially hazardous environments that the instruction he received from me was amongst the finest individual training he has ever received. This year he brought his son from Cornwall UK all the way to Texas specifically so his son could be trained in skydiving by me because he wanted his son to have what he considered the best.
I am not telling you this to impress you, I am telling you this to impress upon you that unless you read the entire book you will not know the entire story until you reach the end of the book and discover the conclusion.

Thanks again TK for your thought provoking comments...

MAke it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[tkhayes 126]

I probably came off a little more pointed than I needed to be, but I think we fundamentally disagree on training philosophies, and I have not read all the posts - so I even may be misquoting you specifically. I saw the post about the "yelling at the student, 600-500-400 whatever" - that set me off.

So I may be able to clarify. I am more of the side that "it's just a skydive" not the Marines, not NASA, and while it may be life threatening at times, the majority of the time it is not, and i simply disagree with horror stories, yelling at students and the like during training. You can die doign almost anything these days - so training is important, but it is not the be-all-and-end-all for us to train anyhing that way.

crossing the street is hazardous sometimes too, but we do not 'train for it' like that. I just finished my private pilot - I think I did pretty well. My instructor never yelled at me once or went into a tyrade on some supposed emergency, depsite the fact the many pilots fuck up royally every year and die, and horrible things happen to them. I already know that, and with a simple flowchart, they can show me what causes people to die while flying airplanes - I needed no such 'recreation' to succeed in my training.

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Being tough? (If you are leaving your students in tears, then I would suggest you are doing a very poor job of instructing)
I have only rattled a couple times this way over my past 5 years of instructing (both “tough guys”) - with only 5 years of experience I am still inexperienced as an instructor and still learning how to treat different individuals. If I am wor.....

You went on to talk about the 'testonterone' student and not taking their trainign seriously. I would not get 'tough' on them. I would get 'thorough' on them. They still need to demonstrate things to me and show they understand - that is all - we may be saying the same things in different ways.

Even an ego customer still paid good money for a thrill. Some will get it, some will not - your job is to take them up and make sure they are safe - not 'tough' on them as some sort of punishment because they have an ego - and yes, i have had those students before too, and grounded two of them in my lifetime simply because they dod not meet the minimum standards that I accept as safe.

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Not certain I agree with this perspective, this is what we would refer to in the ARMY as a “Live Fire Exercise” - if we were to induce malfunctions in the air, say for instance pack them a line over to see how they would deal with the malfunction in an actual emergency situation then this comment would apply but we simulate on the ground so they are prepared to deal with emergencies in the air. If someone want...

May not a live fire exercise, but again, I think there is only so much we can simulate on the ground. I have seen engines with spinning props on the ground mounted to simulate prop blast, hanging harnesses that came from the Spanish Inquisition, people being violently thrown around in training harnesses while trying to pull handles - and I think all that is baloney and unnecessary. It cannot be 'simulated' so why bother. Teach the procedures.... ie. Look, locate, grab, pull. Then they do not have to deal with the effects of the malfunctions iteself - they simply deal witht eh proper procedures to deal with when it happens.

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“would you 'fail' someone on the outcome of your demonstration? If not, then it is probably not worth doing.”
Could you please elaborate on this comment? I am not certain I understand it.

Yes I can, water training is a good example - a COMPLETE waste of time. trainign should have minimum standards and an objective. the objective needs to be 'definable', 'obtainable', and 'measurable' - or it is not really an objective. We teach water in training in case some lands in water and they may drown. SO we throw them in a pool (not a real situation), with some old gear (even less of a real situation) and we get them to get out of the gear. No one has ever failed water training I expect. Therefore it is useless. We should, by the same logic, teach live power line training by hanging people in wires, tree training by hanging people in trees and expect them to perform. It is the silliest thing I have ever heard of. How does one fail water training? By drowning?

So again, back to horror stories and 'drills' during first jump training. If you would not place some pass/fail criteria on what you are tecaching them or expecting them to do on the ground in that situation, (whatever it is), then the exercise has very little merit.

For most emergencies, what I want and expect from them, is that they LOOK at the handles, REACH for the handles, PULL the handles in the correct order, that is the procedure. It serves no purpose to do that with me yelling at them or throwing them around in a hanging harness while they are doing it.

People are like dogs - they respond to good fdbk, not bad fdbk. 'Good Dog', earns far more rewards than 'bad dog'

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“I would hate to be in your class.”
Last year an older gentleman from the UK was in the US on business and I was his instructor from the FJC then 8 Dive Flows into the progression. Very educated and his background where “extreme” activity was extensive with over a decade experience a...“I would hate to be in your class.”
Last year an older gentleman from the UK was in the US on business and I was his instructor from the FJC then 8 Dive Flows into the progression. Very educated and his background where “extreme” activity was extensive with over a decade experience .a.....

And yes, we have all had students that appreciate that 'tough guy' training, because that is what they like, but probably more accurately, that is all they have ever been exposed to. The military is a perfect example, as well as Special Forces, technical scuba diving, aerobatic pilot training, whatever. But I still fired my instructor for being a drill sergeant, because I do not believe that is the best training philosophy. It works for some people, but I hate to say it, the 'kinder', gentler' approach works for MOST and MORE people.

Hope I clarified my position. Take some advanced coach training in ANY sport - the drills are NOT how they work, expect for the exceptions, like the military and similar careers.

It is afterall, just a skydive. People pay good money for it, they deserve to be treated well, they shoud walk away with a smile on their face, and they should stay smiling through the training as well, not be scared into submission.

TK

[AFFI 0]

Thanks for the reply TK, and for the clarifications and elaborations on your points. After reading your reply I decided to sit down and read every word in this entire line of postings, I have nothing better to do on a Friday evening other than study skydiving. What I noticed is that there are many methods that instructors utilize to reach out to students, some we agree on and others we don’t but what we are all striving for is a similar means to the end, to teach people how to safely participate in what we seem to collectively believe is one of the most wonderful empowering peaceful exhilarating and meditative experiences we as humans have ever been exposed to – skydiving.

What I am walking away with this is a deeper level of acceptance to methods that are not my own. The DZO I work for has a philosophy that a staff with instructors that are quality teachers but utilize dissimilar methods of communicating will reach out to a broader range of personalities that walk through the manifest door and I am beginning to be more appreciative of his tolerance for diversity because it is better for our students to pair up with a personality that they can better learn from.

Some of the varying methods posted are astonishingly first-rate TK, Rob, Tom, Michael, John, Ron, and I was most completely floored by Nick’s ability in this string of communication to communicate effectively and make thought provoking points most brilliantly. I want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences and affording me the opportunity to better myself by collecting contrasting thoughts methods and ideas.

When picking these experts I was looking for the similarities, not the differences:
“focus my best efforts on parachute malfunctions and parachute landings.”
“There are all kinds of skydiving instructors in the world and there are many ways to be effective.”
“To be a good Instructor you need several personalities.”
“But, sometimes jarring the right student, just a bit, is a useful tool. Experience can only tell you which those are.”
“You must absolutely teach a person who's never parachuted what to do in case any one of those things you know can go wrong, does so.”
“Since repetition is the mother of skill, the best approach is to simulate the condition as best as possible and have them continually perform the task they need to learn.”
“Courage is not the lack of fear, but the willingness to act, in spite of it.”
“I prefer to train people with the philosophy of "This is how you handle emergencies and keep yourself safe."
“The best instructors tailor stress levels to individual students.
If your first jump course includes a simulated stress level far higher than the student has ever experienced before, you will lose your students.”
“they do not have to deal with the effects of the malfunctions itself - they simply deal with the proper procedures to deal with when it happens.”

Thanks everyone,
Make it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…