student's position in the door?

[milkybar 0]

Howdie Folks,
Would like to hear opinions on student's position [praying exit, Otter] in the door for a single jumpmaster. I like to have student's left leg forward; arms slightly bent; back straight and perpindicular to the floor as comfortable/possible. I teach it that way on the ground and have had no hard, tumbling exits so far (recently rated). I give the students the basic position, and allow them to adjust/find what is comfortable for them. Another very experienced Instructor strongly disagrees. So, I'd like to here your thoughts on their set-up position.
Many Thanks
Blue Skies
Soft Openings

[hookitt 0]

I have little experience with the exit you described but it seemed like a good one.It worked well the times I used it. In fact it seemed easier.

I'm most familiar with a line exit. The front floater (Reserve side instructor) has to lead the exit otherwise they become the cause of the student tumbling. The student can launch off backwards too so that can become challenging. You must block the student as they back out of the door so they won't go until you want them to.

I'd like to hear why the other instructor disagrees. It seems like a perfectly good exit position.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[milkybar 0]

The more experienced instructor insists that the student's torso must be angled about 45 degrees relative to the floor, and that their shoulder close to the top of the door. He believes this prevents the student from putting too much energy into the exit. P.S This is a solo instructor dive.

[bodypilot1 0]

I think it's a great exit, and since I do not jump with a reserve side in my program, it works for me.

As Tim said, "The front floater (Reserve side instructor) has to lead the exit otherwise they become the cause of the student tumbling."

In my many years of instructing I've found this to be true, but unfortunatly it mostly happened with the new AFFI's, and not the seasoned Instructors.

But I have to say, after a few good stable exits this way, I always let the student have the opportunity to stand outside the plane and do a poised exit.



Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Shark 0]

I do not disagree, but I feel that the right foot forward is best, because that's the set up postion we use for Levels 1-3. Single JM Level 4-5 are with the student in the front float position and JM on mainside. Student may turn 90 degrees prior to giving the exit count allowing him/her better presentation into the relative wind. Seems to be working.

[freeflygirlz 0]

I agree with you, right foot forward might be better. You may want to try both positions yourself on the ground, one feels just more natural. Having the left leg front the student is blocking himself on his way outside the door. Having the right leg front, the left one is already outside "flying", when the student still has his weight on the right one.
Have a try!
Everything else sounds very nice!

[riggerrob 558]

We do almost the same "praying" exit from our King Air. Our only difference is whether the student puts his/her left foot of right foot forward. I prefer students to have their right foot forward, while other instructors prefer left foot forward.
In the end. it becomes a question of which foot position makes the student more comfortable.

[sparrella 0]

For me, the most important thing is that the student is not freaking out in the door. I spend quite a bit of time having the student practice walking to the back of the airplane and planting his right foot about a 18 inches from the door frame opposite the middle of the door. The student then pivots in several steps around his right foot until he is facing forward. All the while, the main-side instructor is shadowing him and holding on to his legstrap. I emphasize that since all the weight is on the right leg, which is always well inside the plane, the can't fall out of the plane, a major concern for the student.

Once the student is facing fwd, I have them crouch to a position similar to a 2nd baseman with his forearms resting on his legs, just north of his knee, and his back as vertical as possible. I point out that this position is just about as de-arched as a human being can be.

I'm not really concerned about the right foot being forward of the left because I think the reserve-side instructor's timing is going to control how much the piece turns, but I think it is very important that the student pushes off with his RIGHT leg in order to keep his hips square to the relative wind.

I know this is rather lengthy, but I am only hitting on 4 points:

Pivot on the right leg to get facing forward
Second baseman-forearms on legs and back straight
Push off on the right leg
Arch is a verb, not a noun

"Back's good, Front's good, Radio's on and tested, Main-side has the exit, Reserve side has the ride-out, have a nice day."

The greatest enemy of the truth is not a lie, the greatest enemy of the truth is a myth.

[DanglesOZQld 0]

The best position is one that works for you personally. Go with what the experienced tm's tell you they do but don't be afraid to try things differently if that is not working.

Used to be sooo nice being able to STAND AT THE DOOR of the LET and just jump.........now getting used to the Caravan, student's legs out in the breeze and both in a sitting position, tm's left leg on the base of the rear door frame and a small turn to the right for the air once going and stability 99.9 percent the end result.

BSBD! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[Shark 0]

You might want to consider what your DZ is teaching. I'd want all my instructors teaching the same exits. You want consistency to avoid confusion.

[lug 4]

I agree with Shark, in that there needs to be consistency in techniques trained.

We use what sounds like the same exit setup that you are doing in both our Otter and Caravan. Our school wants to see the right foot no more then shoulder width apart and slightly staggered so the right toes are inline with the left heal. The left hand is up against the forward door post with the elbow bent to about 90 degrees. This keeps the student forward in the door. The right hand is holding onto the inside bar monkey griped. The students left shoulder to the middle of their right shoulder is outside the airplane, this helps bringing the squat higher in the door. The exit count is loud with a slight rock out, in, arch the student basically side steps off the plane leading with the left foot and pushing off with the right keeping their shoulders parallel to the wing with the chin up.

A problem I see in all poised exits is the student is wrong footed at the door and they lead off with the wrong foot, a cross over step, and of course they are looking down.

Memento Mori

[Shark 0]

Quote

A problem I see in all poised exits is the student is wrong footed at the door and they lead off with the wrong foot, a cross over step, and of course they are looking down.

Yep. That's why we discuss proper presentation to the relative wind in the FJC and throughout their student jumps. You want to have the proper body position that allows the best presentation to the relative wind.

[OSOK 0]

Here at Skydive Miami all instructors used the same exit: both hands palm open squeezing edge of door (one inside of aircraft, one outside), right foot up, left knee down, facing the prop. The push is of course with the right, and as that leg extends, the left one does too. This is in a Caravan, btw.

[skyshrink 0]

milky bar,
what is your dominant hand? left or right? generally, ones dominant hand is also his dominant foot. if you are left hand dominant, you may prefer to place your dominant foot (left) forward.
skyshrink

[peek 20]

Quote

The more experienced instructor insists that the student's torso must be angled about 45 degrees relative to the floor, and that their shoulder close to the top of the door. He believes this prevents the student from putting too much energy into the exit. P.S This is a solo instructor dive.

Perhaps you two are not as far apart on the technique as you might think. He might be thinking that you are wanting the student's back perpendicular to the floor is asking a bit much of the student. I have found this to be difficult for older jumpers in particular.

What you are suggesting requires more work (at least to me when I have tried that position), and might cause tension in the student, causing them to want to launch vigorously. That might be what he is refering to.

My thoughts are to suggest to the student something that is comfortable and does not cause any addiitional concern (nervousness).

If they get corrected too much when practicing, it makes them think they are not doing it well enough.

I suggest to the student "left foot forward", but immediately say, "but if you put your right foot forward, no big deal." That's because I haven't found it to be a big deal.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Howdie Folks,
Would like to hear opinions on student's position [praying exit, Otter] in the door for a single jumpmaster. I like to have student's left leg forward; arms slightly bent; back straight and perpindicular to the floor as comfortable/possible. I teach it that way on the ground and have had no hard, tumbling exits so far (recently rated). I give the students the basic position, and allow them to adjust/find what is comfortable for them. Another very experienced Instructor strongly disagrees. So, I'd like to here your thoughts on their set-up position.
Many Thanks
Blue Skies
Soft Openings

I think Gary is right, in that the two methods you describe are 'almost' the same.

One disadvantage of the back perpendicular to the floor for students using the praying hold grip is that they might inadvertently shift their cg too far aft.
This depends upon where their feet are. You want their cg over the feet, not behind them.

Try and keep a straight back, with a 30 lb rig on your back, within the dimensions of your AC door without ANY grips.
Try it with a slightly bent forward position and it is much easier.

That praying 'grip' is for side to side balance and should not be used to balance forward/aft.
[The praying grip is really not supposed to be an actual grip-grip. It is open hands pressed together and there just happens to be an AC fuselage between the hands. This reduces the chances the student uses it to balance forward/aft.]

Jumper height, size of door and athletic ability also come into play here.

I always loved this exit from DC-3s.

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Make It Happen
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