skydiverton 0 #26 August 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteThat's my favorite. When the video guy complains about a fast fall rate. Well put, my brother. I have a lot of respect for GOOD cameramen. Andy West, Dave Martin, Dave Hoyt, Mike Bess, Rob Lowe, The Fuller brothers, Rich and Glen...and many more. But ANYBODY with a thousand bucks can be a camera guy. It really irritates that vein in the back of my neck when a video guy tells me to pick up or slow down the fall rate, or face into the sun, or give a better nod and count. It's the cameraman's job to get the shot. The tandem instructor has his hands full as it is. Skill and experience being equal. A tandem instructor is worth more money than a cameraman. If for the responsability alone. Agree as a TM my major priority is to bring the pax back on the ground safely, but if I can help the videoman a little no problem. First droque and passenger arms. Then I turn my face to the videoman. Together we turn into the sun. and I have plenty of time to do the handlecheck etc. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #27 August 22, 2005 QuoteA tandem instructor is worth more money than a cameraman. If for the responsability alone. Somehow I fail to see why an economic issue should be discussed in an instructors forum - other than providing all the 'working class heroes of the sky' an opportunity to bitch and moan a bit... What is video worth? In the end: what the customer is willing to pay for it... (And BTW I think the customer also FIRST wants to survive the skydive and SECOND wants pictures to show his friends...) In the future outside camera will be replaced by small cameras on the tandemmasters hand for contrary to what some of you believe, tandem is not a sport or an artistic event - like it or not, it has become a business. Even if you point out the quality of the pictures when you do 'outside camera' (if you are an excellent flyer, that is...), you wont be able to: 1. Tape screams of exhileration during freefall... 2. Tape an 'interview under canopy' right after the opening... 3. Film the customer close up from above when the canopy is turning. My experience so far? They are just as pleased with the handcam endproduct - and that my friends is a lot cheaper to produce... And: My handcam NEVER complains about my exitcount or fallrate "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #28 August 23, 2005 QuoteIn the future outside camera will be replaced by small cameras on the tandemmasters hand There was an entire thread about this... I think it was beat to death.... Funny thing is, all those that shoot handycam say they give as good a product as I do with a camera on my head. Interesting thing is, I have yet to see one that is worth a shit (although I do commend the guy that was brave enough to post his in the other thread). Bottom line... Someday, it may replace the outside guys.... But today is not that day. Not if we compare quality. Quote(And BTW I think the customer also FIRST wants to survive the skydive and SECOND wants pictures to show his friends...) I think this is why I wouldn't want my son going with a TI that has extra crap strapped to their hands. Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #29 August 23, 2005 QuoteI wouldn't want my son going with a TI that has extra crap strapped to their hands. The "extra crap" strapped to my hands is a "bullet cam" underneath my altimeter. It weighs 200 grams, is 72mm long and has a diameter of 21mm. Though it is a distraction (and therefore the camera should start 'roling' BEFORE the hook-up) in freefall and under canopy it is a non-issue... Edited to say that I put the camera on a scale - The actual camera on the hand weighs 50 grams, the rest of the 200 grams are cables and battery holder... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #30 August 23, 2005 QuoteThe "extra crap" strapped to my hands is a "bullet cam" underneath my altimeter. It weighs 200 grams, is 72mm long and has a diameter of 21mm. Ok... So that was only part of my post. What about the difference in the quality of the video. Care to post one of yours for us to see? I'm curious how you overcame the lack of image stabilization with the bullet cam. All the videos I have seen without that feature look quite different than with it. Also, How do you keep them in frame while you are doing your handles check? Or are you good enough that you don't need to do one? Also, it seems like I remember someone telling me it was not a good idea to wear my swoop cords under my gloves or altimeter. Has this train of thought changed (this is an assumption that you would not want the cable flopping around in the breeze)? QuoteThough it is a distraction (and therefore the camera should start 'roling' BEFORE the hook-up) in freefall and under canopy it is a non-issue... Even though the first five words of this quote illustrate my point about extra crap, I'll run with it anyway.... So what are you doing with the extra 4 minutes of video? Are you editing it out? If so, are you doing your own editing, or are you asking someone else to do that for you (especially on a busy day)? Or are you hooking up on the way to the door? Some of the questions I'm asking might seem silly, but remember that I have not jumped with you and don't know what the process is at your DZ. Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 August 24, 2005 QuoteIn the future outside camera will be replaced by small cameras on the tandemmasters hand for contrary to what some of you believe, tandem is not a sport or an artistic event - like it or not, it has become a business. Even if you point out the quality of the pictures when you do 'outside camera' (if you are an excellent flyer, that is...), you wont be able to: 1. Tape screams of exhileration during freefall... 2. Tape an 'interview under canopy' right after the opening... 3. Film the customer close up from above when the canopy is turning. Those sound like good bits to add on, but what about what you've lost? 1- exit sequence with pair falling from plane 2- view of ground/horizon way below tandem pair 3- canopy deploy and snatch yanking the pair straight up (from viewpoint) into the sun? http://jor.com/current/skydive/J-sky0010-W.jpg http://jor.com/current/skydive/M11-W.jpg These two are stills, but show the type of footage that I like personally at a scenic venue, would be impossible to do with a hand cam of any quality. You're right - it's a business - that of serving the customer. I'm sure quite a few would be happy with any video. There will always be people prepared to pay for better stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #32 August 24, 2005 That first one makes me think handcams are safer than outside video. It's a sweet picture, but I don't think I want a guy flying up there next to my drouge. If the student had dumped them out right then it might not have ended too well. As far as video quality I think good Handcam video is pretty much comparable to mediocre outside video. By mediocre I mean nothing fancy where they just park right in front of you and keep it in frame the whole time. The real advantage to outside video is the stills. I think people will always want good stills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #33 August 24, 2005 Kelpdivers example pictures of "good video" give the skydivers perspective which is totally different from the tandempassengers perspective. (" Hey, LOOK, that's ME - Skydiving!!!") on both pictures you either cant see that there is someone upfront or cannot make out who it is... My handcam GUARANTEES close up shots. Moreover: the first picture would lead me to have a serious talk with the cameraflyer ("If you pull that stunt once more, you are FIRED! - you have NO BUSINESS up there! Didn't you know that at a place I will not mention the camerflyers newton sight cut through the drogue, deflating it and resulting in a malfunction? Didn't you know that already TWICE cameraflyers have collided with deploying tandemparachutes with deadly results?") Lack off image stabilization is indeed a weakness of the bullet cam, but I have found that it is not all the time necessary to have your camerahand on the vibrating toggle (so what if all those spectacular turns are always to the right?). You'd be surprised what a good editor does when the superfluous and shaky stuff is edited out and the best is put on DVD with music - the endproduct sells. You guys may not want to buy it, but my customers do! PS: The cable goes from under the alti through the altimeterstrap inside my sleeve - its route is almost identical to where the remote shutter cable of my still camera used to go when I jumped with one, many moons ago... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #34 August 24, 2005 QuoteMoreover: the first picture would lead me to have a serious talk with the cameraflyer ("If you pull that stunt once more, you are FIRED! - you have NO BUSINESS up there! The only conversation I would have with one of my guys is.... Pack your shit... You are done. They all know that being above the tandem is stupid. QuoteKelpdivers example pictures of "good video" give the skydivers perspective which is totally different from the tandempassengers perspective. (" Hey, LOOK, that's ME - Skydiving!!!") on both pictures you either cant see that there is someone upfront or cannot make out who it is... I think the first three represent what we do for "OK" video at BSA a little better than the other pics. The last one is a shot that a buddy of mine Robin Kellam took that is a good illustration of what handycam can't do on an exit shot (although the last one is anything but just "ok" its awesome IMHO). Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #35 August 24, 2005 That first one is a downside to outside video, not an upside. I hate not being able to see the vidiot. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #36 August 24, 2005 That first still photo is scary. It is right on the edge of the "danger zone." If that videogrpaher did that on a regular basis, manifest would find them selves scrambling to not assign him to the senior TI (me) ... Wait a minute, if manifest cannot send a videographer with the senior TI, what business do they have sending him with a junior TI? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 August 24, 2005 QuoteKelpdivers example pictures of "good video" give the skydivers perspective which is totally different from the tandempassengers perspective. (" Hey, LOOK, that's ME - Skydiving!!!") on both pictures you either cant see that there is someone upfront or cannot make out who it is... My handcam GUARANTEES close up shots. Moreover: the first picture would lead me to have a serious talk with the cameraflyer First off, I agree that the vidiot is a bit too vertical on the first one. But I only have a couple sets of people's tandem shots to illustrate what I would want. Had he been further horizonal, would have still gotten the shot. Liemberg - both of these shots (different jumps, same day) had plenty of video/stills from a couple feet away as well. But who needs 15 identical shots, esp when you have good scenery as a backdrop? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanglesOZQld 0 #38 August 25, 2005 I have done both and have always said that the outside video guy has it where video is concerned. There are some good points that only a handcam can get (Such as opening and initial reaction) but if you think that handcam will ever be as good as an outside flyer you REALLY ARE KIDDING YOURSELVES!! I have always said that a COMBINATION of both would be the best video but then we are simply going back to the point about money. I would also rather do twice the amount of tandems and not do handcam as it makes me sick to see the product at the end of the day compared to what we used to have. Just like putting 7 tandems in a standard Caravan and then talking about professionalism etc... BSBD! -Mark. "A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
