Instructor responsibilities

[Lizz 0]

Hi
I am interested to read the intro paragraph on the Dropzone/Safety page which says that, '...there is a direct relationship between your knowledge, skill and attitude, and your chances of survival', and, 'the responsibility is yours to make sure you keep growing in the three areas mentioned above'.
That makes sense, but what about the *instructor's* responsibility?
What do skydiving instructors regard as their responsibilities towards their students?
I am a student skydiver (16 jumps) and there are many things about skydiving that I don't know that don't know, (i.e. I am ignorant of my ignorance) and therefore I have no choice but to rely upon my instructor's anticipation and awareness of my ignorance, ... and I am wondering what instructors think about this..., and is it a topic of discussion among instructors?
Cheekily yours,
Lizz

[Sebazz1 2]

An instructors responsibility is to teach a student how to survive and to do whatever they can to help without risking their own life. But the student has the ultimately responsibility for themselves. I love students. More than experienced jumpers.
Seb

[quade 3]

Quote

I am a student skydiver (16 jumps) and there are many things about skydiving that I don't know that don't know, (i.e. I am ignorant of my ignorance) and therefore I have no choice but to rely upon my instructor's anticipation and awareness of my ignorance, ... and I am wondering what instructors think about this..., and is it a topic of discussion among instructors?

I'm -NOT- a skydiving instructor, but I used to be a fairly competent airplane flight instructor and I'll tell you the same thing I used to tell my students . . .
There's no law that says a student can't open a book.
Ultimately, an instructor can only expose their students to a limited amount of training. There is a vast wealth of knowledge that can go well beyond any formal training program. Ultimately, it's the student's responsibility to continue their own training.
Never stop learning.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[riggerrob 561]

A good instructor will mete out new information in small doses.
Ideally those doses are the exact amount of information that the student can absorb and use on his/her next jump. The challenge is figuring out how much this student can absorb this day, a constantly changing amount.
A good instructor will also point students towards USPA's SIM, Poynter's Skydivers Handbook, a stack of old Parachutist magazines and a huge pile of videos, textbooks, etc.
Any student that waits for his/her instructor to spoon feed them every possible bit of information, is .... to put it politely: naive.
The only thing that will keep him/her alive in the long run is CURIOSITY.

[riggerrob 561]

In the event of an aircraft emergency, an instructor's first responsibility is to be the last person out alive.
His second responsibility is to get as many students out alive as possible.
His third priority is to teach the students enough to survive this skydive, etc.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I know when I first started jumping, I could not find enough stuff to read/watch/practice! I tried to educate myself on everything I could get my hands on, and pester the crap outta other jumpers (on forums and in person). BUT, still, there were some things that fell through the loops. At the DZ where I first started, you had a different instructor each time, and they all did stuff differently. Things got overlooked BIG things got overlooked! With no standardization from instructor to instructor, DZ to DZ, I still wonder what else I may have missed. I do know no one else is responsible for me, I don't trust anyone else that much either (especially now). So I will resolve to continue asking *dumb* questions and pestering the crap outta people. In 10 years I will still be learning, I will never know it all!

[Nick 0]

Wendy
I did my first jump with one club and then moved to another (bigger DZ) and met the guy who I who i think kept me jumping (thanks Ash), and the things that you are told are always slightly different, but all focused on the fact that its you under the canopy and no body else and your choice to cut away or not.
One thing is that when I told people that I was doing S/L they always asked why I didn't do a tandem and the reply was that I wanted the whole thing to be my responsibility and all the decisions to be mine, I felt happier like that.
Nick

[billvon 2,436]

>That makes sense, but what about the *instructor's* responsibility?
What do skydiving instructors
>regard as their responsibilities towards their students?
We are responsible for:
a) making sure they know enough to make an informed decision on whether to jump or not;
b) teaching them enough to survive and succeed at whatever student program they are going through;
c) giving the best assistance during the actual skydive as possible;
d) giving them an opportunity to learn on their own without compromising their safety;
e) making a good decision on when to graduate them.
The e) part is a very important one, because that's the point that they can start making their own decisions on safety, gear selection, further training etc. It doesn't mean they stop learning, or we stop teaching, but now they determine their advancement more directly.
-bill von

[Lizz 0]

Thanks for all the replies.
I keep getting this image in my mind, of a graph showing the risk compared to knowledge (& skills and attitude), and experience.
In the graph the risk is higher in the initial stages, and then it reduces, as knowledge and experience increase.
I would like to reduce that risk sooner by methodical and thorough training before-hand.
My job is to develop training in the military and so I find myself judging things fairly critically... especially when safety is involved. Personally I think that it is posssible to develop a training programme that anticipates the majority of student needs (though not all), but it would have to be done very systematically and thoroughly, and within defined boundaries.
An Australian military unit has the motto 'Knowledge dispels fear' and I suppose that this is my philosophy too, regarding jumping. Problem is that I keep discovering that there are important things that I didn't know and just wish that someone had told me. I do read books, and I do talk, and listen, and watch others, and check out jumping sites on the net but I still do also wish that someone could just 'see' my ignorance and tell me beforehand. That would be so nice, (but I suppose naive)!
I also jumped S/L first time, for same reasons as Nick.
If instructors are responsible for making sure that students know *enough*, who decides what 'enough' is? Different people have different ideas of 'enough'.
In incident reports I have noticed an abscence of reasons attributed to poor training....
Is it just me or do other people wonder this stuff?
Maybe I should just develop some training!!! Then I would be more content.
Lizz

[riggerrob 561]

Lizz,
There is an excellent chart from the AFF Certification Course. The chart has two cones, one defining risk and the other cone defining opportunities for learning. It defines the risks on any single skydive.
One cone is upright and the other cone is inverted.
The cone of risk is small at the top and large at the bottom.
For example, if an AFF Level 7 student tumbles on exit, not a big deal, as long as the instructor is there to "assist" at pull time.
Conversely, the cone of "opportunities for learning" is large at the top and small at the bottom. For example, if a Level 7 student wants to tumble the exit, who cares? This is a good opportunity for him to learn how to recover on his own, plus he has 6,000' or 8.000' to spare. On the other hand, if he is still tumbling near pull altitude, then the instructor has to intervene, because he only has one chance to get a good main canopy overhead.
Personal definitions of "enough" information are difficult to define. Textbooks certainly define minimum performance standards for each level of student training. If a student cannot demonstrate competency during the last dirt dive, then no instructor will take that student up.
Good instructors constantly watch for feedback and mete out information at a rate that students can absorb. For example, an instructor would be wasting his time if he tried to explain the finer points of blade running to a first jump student. On the other hand, if a student is learning canopy control quicker than most, the instructor might teach him 1 1/2 levels at a time.
Personal levels of "enough" information vary from student to student. Personal levels also vary from day to day. If you are hung over or stressed out from work, you will absorb half as much as when you are well rested.
The other factor to remember here is that instructors are responsible for "weaning" students as quickly as possible. Consider that a tandem student can do nothing and survive, whereas an AFF student is expected to do everything on his own by AFF Level 7. At old school DZs, the student is on his own right after graduation.
USPA's new student training program is trying to blur the transition from student to independence by adding a series of coach dives, but the bottom line is that every skydiver is responsible for his own life on every skydive.
The main reason that USPA is revising their student program is that too many people were dying under inflated canopies. Canopy technology has advanced far faster than instructional methods, and modern, heavily loaded canopies have tiny margins for error. In an effort to reduce fatalities, USPA is including more instruction on canopy control into their new student program.
Not to discourage you, but you will never know it all. For example: it would take two or three years of hard-core training to compete in the nationals with a CReW team and another three or four years to get to the world meet. Then you would be brilliant at canopy stacking, but would have to start from zero learning blade running.

[PhreeZone 15]

Rob.... What can I say except you covered everything that I could think of too! (And saved me the effort of typing it ) Another great answer to a difficult question!
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[billvon 2,436]

>If instructors are responsible for making sure that students know *enough*, who decides what 'enough' is?
>Different people have different ideas of 'enough'.
Quite correct, which is why some instructors are better than others. For me, "enough" is enough skill to reasonably expect someone to survive a standard 2-way coach dive and handle most common problems. That's not only different for every instructor, but different for every student. I've had students so good that you could give them the general idea ("cut away and open your reserve if you can't safely land your main") and they will successfully figure out the difference between a PC over the nose and a tension knot. There are other students who need to see each possible malfunction, and be trained how to react to each one.
I also teach a "graduate course", usually at the same time as water training. It's intended to cover all that stuff you can't cover during their student training without overwhelming them. In addition, a lot of that stuff just isn't appropriate - you don't need to teach them about how to stay safe at a boogie when their first boogie is six months away, if ever. The grad course gives them an opportunity to hear about such things when they are ready for them.
>Maybe I should just develop some training!!! Then I would be more content.
Go for it. I'd advise looking around for material first, seeing what's out there, then basing your own material on what you think is missing. I'd be happy to send you my AFF syllabus and/or grad syllabus if you want them.
-bill von

[lazerq3 0]

Quote

Not to discourage you, but you will never know it all. For example: it would take two or three years of hard-core training to compete in the nationals with a CReW team and another three or four years to get to the world meet. Then you would be brilliant at canopy stacking, but would have to start from zero learning blade running.

Thats the great thing about this sport...theres more to learn than almost a lifetime to learn it in. I mean how could anyone say there getting bored with skydiving......can you freefly, can you RW, can you freestyle, swoop , blade run , crew, birdman....etc...!! Hell I'll be greatful if I can become great in two diciplines for the amount I jump!!!
jason