Newly rated AFFI - how long before you did a single JM AFF dive?

[riggerrob 558]

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On a barely related note, does anyone know why AFF jumps don't pay more than tandem jumps?

Because there are enough AFFI's that will work for the same +/- as tandems. If there was less AFFI's or they refused to work for peanuts, then they would be paid more.

Derek

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For the same reason that neither I nor or #2 full-time instructor bother to do outside video.
Two years ago we sat the DZO down and explained to him that as long as vidiots got paid the same as TIs, but TIS were jumping DZ gear while vidiots had to buy and maintain all their own gear (including the $3000 helmet), neither of us were going to do outside video of tandem students.
Funny how - even though I have owned a video camera, video suit, camera helmet, etc for the last decade - I never got around to polishing my skills.

In the end it was more profitable for me to learn how to sew handi-mounts and teach myself how to do hand-mounted video of my own tandem students.

PFF is a glamour slot but does not pay as well as TI.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Did my posts answer your questions regarding specifics of how the AFFCC was made easier to pass by USPA?

Derek

[Pendejo 0]

Kind of... Thanks for at least having something to back up what you were saying...

I'm still unclear about the number of sat/unsat's allowed before vs now. When I went through (about a month ago) we were told we had to perform the roll over and spin stop maneuvers to be able to get a rating. Its interesting that the CD would have his evals doing a predetermined dive plan. At the coarse I went through I'm sure there was a general idea of what Jay (or Kevin) would throw at us before we went up, but looking at the dives again last night (all pre-coarse and eval jumps had video) there is way to much variance in the jumps for me to think that he had a "set" diveplan he followed.

We were told at the coarse (according to what I remember) that you had to have more "sat's" than "un-sat's" to pass the dive. If you didn't roll the student over or perform a spin stop it was an auto unsat and the dive had to be done over. How is that different from when you went through? Did they require a all sat dive to pass? If so.... That would be a large change from the way it is now.

As to being able to fail more dives.... I'm still being stupid.... We had to pass 3 out of 4 (performing roll over and spin stops on each dive). What were the old numbers?

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

The new course requires you to pass 3 of 4 dives. The old course required you to get 12 points on a maximum of 6 dives with a possible score of 0 to 4 on each dive.

For example, a candidate fails the first dive. That would be an 'unsat' with the new course and a '0' with the old course.

For the second dive, he does "OK" which gives him a 'pass' at the new course and a '2' at the old course.

For the third dive, he again does "OK", which gives him another 'pass at the new course and a '2' at the old course.

Same score(s) for the fourth dive. At the new course, he is now an AFFI. At the old course, he has 6 points out of the 12 he needs and only 2 jumps left. The pressure is own. He must perform better than "OK" and score 2 '3's' or a '4' and a '2' to pass the course. So instead of having his rating, he is under the gun to demonstrate that not only can he pass the eval jumps, but must perform very well in order to get his rating. The added pressure makes the eval dives that much harder, similar to last few accuracy jumps for the PRO rating.

Because of how the course was changed, it is easier to pass, less qualified candidates are passing the new course.

At the course I went to (in 1999), I never had to roll the evaluator back over. Every time he tried to roll over, I grabbed him, kept him stable, gave him the arch signal and relax until he did and let go again.

The new course I witnessed, the candidate could not catch the evaulator on his back, but still eventually passed the course.

Derek

[Shark 0]

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The new course I witnessed, the candidate could not catch the evaulator on his back, but still eventually passed the course.

That's UNSAT!!!! Would this new AFFI be able to rollover a real student without having a satisfactory rollover with an evaluator?

I've rolled over several, some of which reminded me of my evaluator Jay Stokes.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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That's UNSAT!!!! Would this new AFFI be able to rollover a real student without having a satisfactory rollover with an evaluator?

Simple answer: He wouldn't. DZO's don't care about quality, only quanity. That is why the AFFCC standards were lowered. Look at all the AFF students that have Cypres fires these days.

That is the other part of the course they changed, you can just keep doing eval dives until you pass.

Look at how the pass rate skyrocketed up to over 80% from 50% +/-. Skills didn't go up, the standard went down.

This is an example of how when USPA must choose between it's members and DZO's, DZO's win every time.

A highly experienced and capable AFFI doesn't make any more per jump than a fresh out of the box, barely passed the new course AFFI does. I think that is a contributing factor to why experienced AFFI's give it up. It's a shame.

Derek

[Pendejo 0]

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand what you mean. I didn't understand the points system they had before. I was lucky enough to not have any un-sat scores or dives when I went through (shows what a great teacher Jay is).

I think its sad that you witnessed someone get a rating that could not roll over a student... That would make me say the same things about the course I went through VS the course you saw. It seems from what I have read (mostly on DZ.COM) that there is a large difference from one coarse to the next. How is it that we can have a ISP to follow for students and yet have such a great difference between courses... I think the easy answerer is that its the CD at fault... But then again, their not the ones responsible for quality control.... And if they are, that would be the starting point for discussion as to WHY uspa would allow it to be that way...


To answerer the question in the original post, it was my 11th AFF jump before I went with a student on a cat. D. The dive went well.... He will be a good skydiver someday!!

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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How is it that we can have a ISP to follow for students

Remember that USPA backed down from making the ISP mandatory from pressure from DZO's. The DZ's here in CO all use old school AFF, as do a lot of DZ's across the country. Ask yourself, why would a DZO continue to use old school AFF when there is a proven, better program out there?

Derek

[Shark 0]

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DZO's don't care about quality, only quanity.

Your generalizing. Not my DZ nor any SoCal DZ that I know about. If there are that many AFFIs out there we'd have over 20 on the weekend. If an old school AFFI wants to give it up, that's his/her right. Find another DZ, or quit and get into another sport. If they quit because of a pay schedule commensurate with newbies, then they are losers. In this case nobody benefits.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Your generalizing.

True, there are exceptions, just not many.

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If they quit because of a pay schedule commensurate with newbies, then they are losers.

What is wrong with getting more pay for doing a better job?

Derek

[Shark 0]

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What is wrong with getting more pay for doing a better job?

Nothing, but it's usually received in the form of a monetary tip.

[Hooknswoop 19]

An electrician that has been doing electrical work for 20 years shoud, and does, get paid more than an electrician with 1-year experience, and not in the form of a tip.

Derek

[Shark 0]

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An electrician that has been doing electrical work for 20 years shoud, and does, get paid more than an electrician with 1-year experience, and not in the form of a tip.

Derek

Rarely does an electrician save a life.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Rarely does an electrician save a life.

Exactly why AFFI's should;

1) Be paid more
2) Not get their rating if they cannot catch a student, always
3) lose their rating if their student bounces or the student's AAD fires
4) Be paid more as their experience and performance level increases.

Electricions work on life-critical equipment/systems and poor electrical work has cost lives. Would you be willing to pay more for a better, more experience electricion to work on a system your life will depend on? I would.

Derek

[Shark 0]

Whatever..... Should we establish a union like the electricians do? Or maybe we should become electricians. If a skydiver wants to make more he should find another profession.

Dude, give it a break.... this can be debated forever.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Should we establish a union like the electricians do?

Maybe not a union, but that might work too, but a association of Skydiving Instructors would be a good idea. Benifits for full-time Instrcutors, beter pay, pay increases based onperformance and experience, etc.

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Or maybe we should become electricians.

You would make more money if you did.

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If a skydiver wants to make more he should find another profession.

Too bad. If a full time, experienced Instructor could make enough money, they might be more of them around, which would be good for students and up and coming Instructors alike. Instead a lot of them bail, taking their experience with them.

Instead, USPA lowers the standards to create a larger pool to keep pay low. Too bad really.

Derek

[AFFI 0]

The Mediocre Instructor:
Some do it for jumps; they don’t care about the student, only about themselves. The law of averages are on the mediocre instructors side that their student will survive this jump. The mediocre instructor doesn’t wear appropriate attire, just free-fly pants and a tee-shirt so after his (or her) Level 5 spinning student saves them self (because the mediocre instructor either won’t even make an attempt to save his student or cant in his free-fly pants or just plain old lacks skill) the mediocre instructor can then go free-fly with his buddy flying outside camera. The mediocre instructor doesn’t properly prepare his student before the jump and takes his students out in unsafe conditions. The mediocre instructor goes and swoops the ditch instead of observing and talking his (or her) student down safely. I have strong opinionated names to label the mediocre with but will refrain because I have better things to do with my time and besides, it won’t make a difference to them, they only care about themselves. They are MEDIOCRE…
The mediocre instructor gives the job a bad name.

The Quality Instructor:
Some do it for the passion, because the quality instructor understands that he (or she) is dealing with a HUMAN BEING that may one day need the foundation of skills their quality instructor is TEACHING them. The quality instructor is teaching a solid foundation of skills and safe practices. The quality instructor cares more about teaching (doing their job) than making jumps and making money. The quality instructor is the opposite of the mediocre instructor.
Quality instructors are the minority (IMHO).

Given the rampant number of mediocre instructors in the field, it’s no wonder the pay sucks but personally, I think it pays too much. I would and often do it for free… Passion…

If anything, the USPA should have made it harder to obtain the rating.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Given the rampant number of mediocre instructors in the field, it’s no wonder the pay sucks but personally, I think it pays too much. I would and often do it for free… Passion…

I got hungry living on passion.

Derek