Front riser turns/dives

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

RELAX!! The safe ones. Just learning the canopy up high. How much strength should be needed to perform these on a 290 canopy loaded ~.7?? Just a curious question, I tried last week and the darn thing didn't even twitch! I just want to know if I should keep trying harder or give up cause its impossible. Thanks
(Knowing of course nothing is impossible!)

[fred 0]

I've been curious about the same thing. Under a 280, I couldn't get those things to budge. Although, I was a bit scared of the maneuvre, anyhow. In the end, I decided to wait until I was more experienced.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Even if you get them to move on a student canopy, the effect is minimal. Trust me, I've tried enough !!
You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!!

[indyz 1]

As a student I'm loading a Skymaster at around .6, and I can't get anything with the front risers. In order to get a solid grip I have to hold on up the connector link. I'm pulling waaaaay down and holding for 5+ seconds without any noticible turn. It can pretty easily get a turn or strong flare out of the rear risers. I've been meaning to ask what I'll have to load at to get a turn out of it.
--
Brian
Homepage
AIM: suprmath

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

LOL, so I am not the only one who forgets to ask these questions while all the instructors are around! After that jump I was a little distracted, so I completely forgot about the front riser thing. Rear risers have never been any dificulty for me.

[Beachbum 0]

smallest student rig where I went thru aff was a 215 ... which I load at about .7 .... I had to literally hang on the risers with all my weight to get anything noticeable out of them ...

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

When I was on Skymasters, I didn't use the toggles until I was coming in to land - I found the rear risers much more responsive and fun.
You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!!

[Kelly 0]

i was loading a spectre 170 at around .8:1 and doing hop and pops from altitude. To do a front riser turn/dive was almost impossible. Let me clarify, doing one with any amount of speed was almost impossible. My friend/coach (even though i didnt realize he was coaching me at the time) was off to my right. I tried to do a left front riser turn. I grabbed, pulled down and did a very slow turn, actually stoped the turn movement too.
experiment with where you grab your front risers and shifting your weight in the harness.
Going from the 170 to the 150 (both spectres) The change was very noticable. I was loading the 150 at .9:1.

http://kel197.tripod.com/skydivefriendsTRIPOD/

[billvon 2,435]

>RELAX!! The safe ones. Just learning the canopy up high. How much strength should be needed to
>perform these on a 290 canopy loaded ~.7??
It's not canopy size or loading, it's canopy design. Whether the canopy is 69 square feet, or 300, the four risers have to carry your entire body weight. Canopy design determines how that weight is split between front and rear riser. Some canopies (like the Nova) have fairly low front riser pressure, some (Sabre) are fairly high.
-bill von

[kallend 1,651]

>>It's not canopy size or loading, it's canopy design. Whether the canopy is 69 square feet, or 300, the four risers have to carry your entire body weight. Canopy design determines how that weight is split between front and rear riser. Some canopies (like the Nova) have fairly low front riser pressure, some (Sabre) are fairly high.>>
Bill, can't there be variations from canopy to canopy of the same design due to trim differences?
In any case, I believe that the front risers always carry > 50% of the load, meaning that you need a fair amount of upper body strength to use them effectively.

[PhreeZone 15]

50% ? I'm a little weakling that can't do more then about 4 pushups or 2 chin ups, but I can hold my front dive loop at the 3 rings till impact if I wanted to under my Cobalt or only a bit harder under my old Spectre. It's totally dependent on the canopy design.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[lippy 779]

Being one poor bastard, I've yet to jump my own gear and have done 92 skydives, almost all of which on Mantas and Skymasters. One thing I picked up is that if you flare the canopy up high, it will take enough pressure off of the front risers that you can really haul 'em down. You'll get a faster turn, but it's a real bitch to hold it down that far. Hope this helps, and remember to keep it high.
Live to Jump, Pull to Live,
Lippy

[billvon 2,435]

>Bill, can't there be variations from canopy to canopy of the same design due to trim differences?
Definitely. I think it is canopy design, i.e, line attach points, line lengths, cascade design, airfoil design etc that determines front riser pressure. Loading and total canopy size have a very small additional effect. (Of course, a 200 pound jumper will have to pull twice as hard as a 100 pound jumper, but the ratio will stay roughly the same.)
>In any case, I believe that the front risers always carry > 50% of the load, meaning that you need a fair amount of
>upper body strength to use them effectively.
That wasn't true on my old Nova - the front risers were quite easy to pull down, the rear risers were much harder.
-bill von

[rhino 0]

Definately in the design and loading.. I could barely pull the front risers down on an fx114 but my Diablo110 will let me.. Maybe it's the speed, the g's, how fast you enter a turn, angle of attack.. Your not going to get a whole lot of front riser thrills out of a big canopy.
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[airdrew20012001 0]

Here's what I can tell you from personal experience:
I had a raider 220 loaded at about .8 and the front risers didn't matter. I had a sabre 170 loaded at 1:1 and they were heavy but you could tell you were diving. I had a Robo Z 170 and it did ok, more fast than the sabre. I now jump a stilletto 135 and the front toggle pressure is light and very responsive. My impression is that elipticals are more responsive than non probably because, especially in the case of the stilletto, the difference in the way the leading edge is trimmed. Plus the wing loading always makes canopies more reactive. I jumped a triathalon 160 and a sabre 130 back to back and the difference was very noticeable.
If you are not getting much out of student gear then GOOD! Learn to land straight, into the wind, on your feet in wind, traffic, no wind, side wind, et then worry about front riser turns. If you want a fun ride up high with lighter loading try what I call a sashay. Do about 90 degree turn in one direction, when you get that light feeling during the recovery, drop the opposite side steering toggle and bury it. Even steering toggle pressure is heavy in big student gear.
"Be safe, don't be a statistic"
Drewfus McDoofus

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

OK, I guess I needed to be a little bit more specific. The canopy is a Skymaster, the rear risers are very easily manipulated - part of the reason I was so surprised at the inability to pull front risers. I love my canopy time, I enjoy playing around with it up high. The front riser thing is on our little yellow card thingy, so I figured might as well try it if I could. Oh, and by "up high" I mean above 2000. I pull at 6000 and play around untill 2000, from that point, I only do turns as necessary to bleed of altitude while I am setting up for my landing.
Thanks everyone for your help!

[Ducky 0]

I had/have many of the same questions about Fr. Riser turns n dives as well as braked approaches and flat turns while working through my A proficiency card.
I am learning that the most important thing is learn the safety issues regarding each first. Then from there try absorb some tecnique advice, but for the most part you just have to experiment and play. Do it up high and watch out for others and all should be well.
kwak
Stupidity is a crime.

[billvon 2,435]

>The canopy is a Skymaster, the rear risers are very easily manipulated - part of the reason I was so surprised at the inability to pull front risers.
This makes perfect sense to me. Each set of risers (left and right) carries 1/2 your weight. If less is carried on the rear riser on each side, more is carried on the front.
-bill von

[rhino 0]

You guys are in for some fun in a few hundred jumps.. I'm hitting my Diablo110 at 1.7.. I lean in the harness and it moves.. The turns can be initiated with weight transfer.. In my Diablo I can initiate a front riser turn, go inverted, bury THAT leg in the harness and the canopy continues to fly in a slow corkscrew STRAIGHT DOWN AT VERY HIGH SPEEDS.. And my canopy isn't that high performance.. Imagine hook at 3.2 on his VX60.. I am just beginning to experience the fun of high performance canopy flight.. It is a blast!! Be careful and plan well.. Have fun!! It gets better :)
Rhino
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!
http://www.aahit.com

[n2skdvn 0]

same here i demoed a samuri 95 loaded at1.4
liked the way it flew front riserswere a tad on the heave side
but brian desinged it that way
toggle input was amazing little or no pressure at all
quick and responsive harness input was noticeable too
play with your canopy up high best way to learn the canopy
this space for rent........