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georger 197
Quote
CKRET states:QuoteI agree with you to a point but you have to also throw the other factors into the mix. If the money was buried there it had to have happened after 1974. there is nothing that points to that having happened, for it to be so you have to add human elements. If you do that you have to develope further motives, additional facts and so on......
When did 1974 enter the mix?
I am very surprised to have you even consider adding the human element. Now you have my attention. Perhaps my screaming that the money be tested using todays' forensic has finally been heard.
Could the test have shown that the money was buried in another location prior to entering the water?I know they can do amazing things with forensics today, but thought most of it was just for show on TV or in the movies.
I know they can do amazing things with forensics today, but thought most of it was just for show on TV or in the movies.Maybe you could put something together since
you have talked to all the witnesses and still
communicate with so any.
Th world awaits your guidance and permission.
Georger
snowmman 3
Quote
As for the postings by Georger and Snowmman - I am critized if I make any in-put, but what I just read in these last few posts is very questionable.
This is how the myths obscure the truths and I don't have enough time on this earth to continue to try to keep them straight.
How in the world would a 5 yr old child - remember this. At 5 she was very impressionable and probably very jealous of all the attention her brother got over the yrs....Why don't they call Brian?
I do not understand all of certain speculations when there are still those who are alive that know exactly what happened. I have been in contact with actual witnesses over the yrs - how many of you have done that or care enough about the truth to do so?
REPLY> The article proves the child Denise was interviewed for the article and claimd a role in finding
the money. The child's mother was on hand with
the child during the interview.
Many people have talked to witnesses, Jo. Most
of them years ago. You are not the only person
who talked to witnesses, but you may be the only
person who maintains a continual relationship?
Georger
sometimes I have to re-read Jo's posts a couple of times, before I see she doesn't really read other people's posts in detail before she goes off. (Jo: stop reading here, just reply and call me an ignorant clod and refer to your 12 years of logs again)
There is probably no point in calling Brian? If you remember this thread, Ckret called Brian to talk about the money a while back. Ckret pressed him about the rubber band question, and Brian had to call his parents to check. That tells me Brian's memory is unreliable today. Also Brian gave varying descriptions of the bundle positioning during his interviews for the money auction. I posted on that before, although it's weak since it's a function of the article writers also.
At the very least I thought it odd how often Brian talked about how the bundles were found close to each other in his auction interviews...almost like he was regurgitating stuff that seemed important to others, or his memory was kind of weak.
on the "lifeline" Brian used:
May 1, 2008, 9:33 AM
Ckret posted (snipped)
..
So I then started putting calls into Brian Ingram. He called me back and we spoke about the discovery of the money. What I found was that the money was not recovered near the water but about 20 to 40 feet from the edge. He said he found it in an area that had recently been covered in water. So I thought, "well not really much of a difference." I then asked for the details about the condition of the money when he found it and he confirmed, after speaking with his parents, that the money absolutely had rubber bands around the bundles.
snowmman 3
This was from back May 27, 2008
Ckret said:
"there were many family members at the beach the day the money was found and some said Brian's cousin helped find the money and had a claim to it."
Ckret can clarify or extend or ignore.
In re-reading that, I noticed Ckret used the phrase "some said"
which to my reading would imply some adults beyond the 5 year old Denise. Now those adults may have just been replaying what Denise said.
Or who knows.
But like I said, the story is all fuzzy.
Apparently some people think "they know" what happened.
I know I don't know.
Ckret said:
"there were many family members at the beach the day the money was found and some said Brian's cousin helped find the money and had a claim to it."
Ckret can clarify or extend or ignore.
In re-reading that, I noticed Ckret used the phrase "some said"
which to my reading would imply some adults beyond the 5 year old Denise. Now those adults may have just been replaying what Denise said.
Or who knows.
But like I said, the story is all fuzzy.
Apparently some people think "they know" what happened.
I know I don't know.
QuoteThis was from back May 27, 2008
Ckret said:
"there were many family members at the beach the day the money was found and some said Brian's cousin helped find the money and had a claim to it."
.
I found NO post on May 27 about the money on the beach...perhaps it is in a PRIVATE email to you.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteThis was from back May 27, 2008
Ckret said:
"there were many family members at the beach the day the money was found and some said Brian's cousin helped find the money and had a claim to it."
.
I found NO post on May 27 about the money on the beach...perhaps it is in a PRIVATE email to you.
You betcha. Shocker! Note I didn't say "posted".
I said to myself, "what would Bodhi do?"
new article coming in next post!
snowmman 3
I just found another article that is mostly the same UPI press release I previously posted. This one though, names Christal Ingram as the mother of the cousin Denise. She was 25 at the time. The article implies she's Brian's mom, but that's not true. (actually the article kind of doesn't say that, but could be misread that way)
Christal adds detail that the kids were digging in the sand with sticks when they found it. So who knows.
The article also gives a name of an FBI agent giving details about money the FBI found:
from the article:
FBI agents dug up more fragments of wet $20 bills late Tuesday along the river on the Fazio Ranch west of Vancouver, Wash.
..
"They're very small pieces of money, about the size of a nickel," said FBI agent Tom Nicodemus. He said some of the pieces of money were as deep as three feet beneath the surface.
"It indicates to us there's been a lot of sand shift there and the money has been there for some time." Nicodemus said.
(Source: google has announced they are scanning newspapers now...which has created some additional source info, in addition to my more typical NY Times/Newspaper Archie sources...This apparent wire? article was on page 18 of the Bulletin Journal, 2/12/80. A Missouri paper. I've noted before that small town newspapers are good for carrying unedited wire releases in full.)
(edit) They didn't find out about the dredging right away. The quote above about sand shift was before they found out about the 1974 dredging, as far as I can tell, from later articles around 2/14/80.
Christal adds detail that the kids were digging in the sand with sticks when they found it. So who knows.
The article also gives a name of an FBI agent giving details about money the FBI found:
from the article:
FBI agents dug up more fragments of wet $20 bills late Tuesday along the river on the Fazio Ranch west of Vancouver, Wash.
..
"They're very small pieces of money, about the size of a nickel," said FBI agent Tom Nicodemus. He said some of the pieces of money were as deep as three feet beneath the surface.
"It indicates to us there's been a lot of sand shift there and the money has been there for some time." Nicodemus said.
(Source: google has announced they are scanning newspapers now...which has created some additional source info, in addition to my more typical NY Times/Newspaper Archie sources...This apparent wire? article was on page 18 of the Bulletin Journal, 2/12/80. A Missouri paper. I've noted before that small town newspapers are good for carrying unedited wire releases in full.)
(edit) They didn't find out about the dredging right away. The quote above about sand shift was before they found out about the 1974 dredging, as far as I can tell, from later articles around 2/14/80.
georger 197
REPLY> The article proves the child Denise was interviewed for the article and claimd a role in finding
the money. The child's mother was on hand with
the child during the interview.
Many people have talked to witnesses, Jo. Most
of them years ago. You are not the only person
who talked to witnesses, but you may be the only
person who maintains a continual relationship?
Georger
the money. The child's mother was on hand with
the child during the interview.
Many people have talked to witnesses, Jo. Most
of them years ago. You are not the only person
who talked to witnesses, but you may be the only
person who maintains a continual relationship?
Georger
sometimes I have to re-read Jo's posts a couple of times, before I see she doesn't really read other people's posts in detail before she goes off.
Reply - became obvious to me a long time ago.
Im in the opposite dilemma. Cant say what I would
like to and sometimes need to. I would be in instant
trouble if I did ...
There is probably no point in calling Brian? If you remember this thread, Ckret called Brian to talk about the money a while back. Ckret pressed him about the rubber band question, and Brian had to call his parents to check. That tells me Brian's memory is unreliable today.
That and family dynamics . . .
Also Brian gave varying descriptions of the bundle positioning during his interviews for the money auction. I posted on that before, although it's weak since it's a function of the article writers also.
Reporters sometimes report accurately. Obviously
Denise and Brian were together, playing. One or the
other turned the money up but whatever happened
the adults took over. As the various articles have reported, Harold talked about it at work which is to
his credit. This lead to a meeting with H. At length,
everyone was interviewed. But then the Ingrams had
to file an action to claim a share.
Very likely had Harold just walked into a bank to try
and convert the bills, a trace of serial numbers would have followed, and who knows what would have developed.
Harold made no connection to Cooper until people
at his work suggested a possible link.
I think your suggestion of a quick 'theory' to account for Tina Bar and connect it to the Washougal is accurate, however the Washougal had already been an active theory, people had searched there. Some explored the Lewis River as the link to T_Bar but that quickly proved hydrologically impossible. So,
apparently. the Washougal theory was given credance ...
At the very least I thought it odd how often Brian talked about how the bundles were found close to each other in his auction interviews...almost like he was regurgitating stuff that seemed important to others, or his memory was kind of weak.
There is no doubt the adults took over. The story
they developed and their reasons for doing so is
anyone's guess.
on the "lifeline" Brian used:
May 1, 2008, 9:33 AM
Ckret posted (snipped)
..
So I then started putting calls into Brian Ingram. He called me back and we spoke about the discovery of the money. What I found was that the money was not recovered near the water but about 20 to 40 feet from the edge. He said he found it in an area that had recently been covered in water. So I thought, "well not really much of a difference." I then asked for the details about the condition of the money when he found it and he confirmed, after speaking with his parents, that the money absolutely had rubber bands around the bundles.
Rubber band fragments seems universal. Three
bundles each with band (fragments). Each bundle more or less stuck together and needing separation.
The Ingrams spread the money out at home as
best they could and made some separations. They
discussed the matter.
Harold goes to work the next day and starts chirping to his workmates 'hey guess what I found!'
. . .
When you look at where Tina Bar sits, there is
nothing (and I do mean nothing) compelling about
its location in the light of the present-day facts.
It does not even sit in a hydrologically compelling location, by itself.
But I am saying nothing new . . .
Good show Snow!
Georger
snowmman 3
it's nothing really new. Like I mentioned, I was wondering about this back in May.
There's no smoking gun. Just possibilities.
What's new for me, is that the FBI info/resolutions/claims are somewhat less credible to me than maybe I was willing to believe in May.
Not thru any evildoing. It's just that it seems the FBI data, in some areas, is not as solid as Ckret sometime seems to present it as. I can see that Ckret is in a mode of wanting to rule out possibilities.
But like I say, Black Swans. And Ckret likes to think in terms of his perception of "probabilities" even when it's obvious there's no data to calculate statistics off of.
(edit) Although we're not mentioning it, I'm more curious about the additional fragments found "deeper" ...true or false. We've touched on this before, and waffled, with no clear statements from Ckret. hmm..sometimes when he says "no" ..I'm not sure I believe he's gone thru all the files anyhow..Catch 22 I guess!
(edit) as an example of bag myths: the bag was postulated to be the only "preserver" of rubber band integrity. This was presented, without proving that sand and water wasn't. I think sand and water would be even better at preserving rubber than the bag!
There's no smoking gun. Just possibilities.
What's new for me, is that the FBI info/resolutions/claims are somewhat less credible to me than maybe I was willing to believe in May.
Not thru any evildoing. It's just that it seems the FBI data, in some areas, is not as solid as Ckret sometime seems to present it as. I can see that Ckret is in a mode of wanting to rule out possibilities.
But like I say, Black Swans. And Ckret likes to think in terms of his perception of "probabilities" even when it's obvious there's no data to calculate statistics off of.
(edit) Although we're not mentioning it, I'm more curious about the additional fragments found "deeper" ...true or false. We've touched on this before, and waffled, with no clear statements from Ckret. hmm..sometimes when he says "no" ..I'm not sure I believe he's gone thru all the files anyhow..Catch 22 I guess!
(edit) as an example of bag myths: the bag was postulated to be the only "preserver" of rubber band integrity. This was presented, without proving that sand and water wasn't. I think sand and water would be even better at preserving rubber than the bag!
The article is for real, but why did they let Brian take the credit and why did the story change over the yrs? All these yrs and this was never disputed until recently - still sounds like someone is looking for money or her share of it.
The article definitely disputes what was in a couple of books - I am sure the writers did their thing here - and/or the publishers because this or that sells better.
See what I mean about the truth getting distorted over time? This is an excellent example of that.
Jerry, I really don't know how you find all of these things - it amazes me. Most of the items are buried beyond finding by a regular computer geek - how do you have access to these old archived article?
If anyone ever tries to write a book about Cooper - they sure has hell need you to do the research.
Bet there is a lawsuit lurking otherwise why would this (about Denise finding the money) be brought up at this time after all of these yrs. See why I battle it out here? The truth is very important to me and I like that you go after the supporting articles.
The article definitely disputes what was in a couple of books - I am sure the writers did their thing here - and/or the publishers because this or that sells better.
See what I mean about the truth getting distorted over time? This is an excellent example of that.
Jerry, I really don't know how you find all of these things - it amazes me. Most of the items are buried beyond finding by a regular computer geek - how do you have access to these old archived article?
If anyone ever tries to write a book about Cooper - they sure has hell need you to do the research.
Bet there is a lawsuit lurking otherwise why would this (about Denise finding the money) be brought up at this time after all of these yrs. See why I battle it out here? The truth is very important to me and I like that you go after the supporting articles.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
QuoteThe article is for real, but why did they let Brian take the credit and why did the story change over the yrs? All these yrs and this was never disputed until recently - still sounds like someone is looking for money or her share of it.
Jo.
Nothing happened recently. You misread my posts.
The article is from 2/80.
You're the only one fixated on money.
No-go. The contract is no-go! Got it? No-go!
georger 197
Quote
I just found another article that is mostly the same UPI press release I previously posted. This one though, names Christal Ingram as the mother of the cousin Denise. She was 25 at the time. The article implies she's Brian's mom, but that's not true. (actually the article kind of doesn't say that, but could be misread that way)
Christal adds detail that the kids were digging in the sand with sticks when they found it. So who knows.
The article also gives a name of an FBI agent giving details about money the FBI found:
from the article:
FBI agents dug up more fragments of wet $20 bills late Tuesday along the river on the Fazio Ranch west of Vancouver, Wash.
..
"They're very small pieces of money, about the size of a nickel," said FBI agent Tom Nicodemus. He said some of the pieces of money were as deep as three feet beneath the surface.
"It indicates to us there's been a lot of sand shift there and the money has been there for some time." Nicodemus said.
(Source: google has announced they are scanning newspapers now...which has created some additional source info, in addition to my more typical NY Times/Newspaper Archie sources...This apparent wire? article was on page 18 of the Bulletin Journal, 2/12/80. A Missouri paper. I've noted before that small town newspapers are good for carrying unedited wire releases in full.)
(edit) They didn't find out about the dredging right away. The quote above about sand shift was before they found out about the 1974 dredging, as far as I can tell, from later articles around 2/14/80.
REPLY>
Harold D Ingram, wife Patricia, son Brian.
Crystal Ingram ex-wife of Harold's brother David.
daughter Denise. Parents Divorced.
QuoteAlthough we're not mentioning it, I'm more curious about the additional fragments found "deeper" ...true or false. We've touched on this before, and waffled, with no clear statements from Ckret. hmm..sometimes when he says "no" ..I'm not sure I believe he's gone thru all the files anyhow..Catch 22 I guess!
Good approach - yes, I would like to know if that is true or if was because they started trenching.
Like grits - ever try to pick the black specks out before cooking them - they keep going to the bottom. I know that is an odd anology for you guys, but it is the one that enters my mind.
Also Puffed rice - if you are celiac sprue you have to put the cereal in a large bowl and shake it so the fine grain (that possible have wheat contact) sift to the bottom. Now I use an colander - and just sift it out.
Georger - what else could explain the smaller pieces being deeper or did they just sift there in the recovery process like the grits and cereal.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
Okay, Jo, you'll know all this, from your 12 years of logs :)
Christy Axxxx, Brian's first wife, they divorced. Christy gets all uppity about child support payments, article in the Oregonian ((edit) or was it The Columbian), she posts to suite101 with you(Jo) there, talking about it, she also claimed that the cousin was involved in the money find, and that the family didn't talk about it much.
Now this all could have been divorce rage.
Now in suite101, the following was posted, along with some others (which Jo actually interacted with).
I traced back thru some stuff. And I think the poster really was Brian's divorced wife. I think some of the things she said were too far out there, and just flaming.
But it caught my eye that she mentioned the cousin thing.
(following is quoted from suite101)
I am in the process of submitting information I have to the FBI, but how in the world do you think a little boy and his cousin knew exactly where to dig in the sand on that beach. I know their family led them to it.... And, in response to the movies out there, 3/4 of that is not true. That's not even close to what the real story is.... Brian Ingram's father actually looks like the FBI drawing of DB Cooper. I could go on ALL DAY, I have so much information on this subject... When I was married into the family, it was so hush-hush, I wasn't allowed to ask questions and this was never discussed. Most of the information I have is because I have researched and found it out for myself.... The Ingram family has the answers.... I feel sorry for all the false leads out there. I also saw the story about the widow that thinks her deceased husband is DB Cooper; I know she truely believes this...I cried watching her story, because that's how strongly I believe the INGRAM family is connected to all of this....
-- posted by satelliteman501
(endquote)
she also flamed in a comment to this article at the bottom.
http://newsok.com/article/3200118/?print=1
She was also interviewed by the Oregonian, (edit) or was it The Columbian?, so a reporter really did speak to her about the child support claims.
basically, from what I could tell, all the flaming was coming from Christy, and she was Brian's ex-wife.
Possibility of being wrong, but I'm pretty confident what I say is correct here.
(edit) Note that Christy sold or tried to sell a cooper bill on Ebay before the Brian auctions. Apparently mentioned daughter's name "Kara" in the ebay auction listing. She says she got some of them as part of the divorce? May be remarried with different last name now.
Christy Axxxx, Brian's first wife, they divorced. Christy gets all uppity about child support payments, article in the Oregonian ((edit) or was it The Columbian), she posts to suite101 with you(Jo) there, talking about it, she also claimed that the cousin was involved in the money find, and that the family didn't talk about it much.
Now this all could have been divorce rage.
Now in suite101, the following was posted, along with some others (which Jo actually interacted with).
I traced back thru some stuff. And I think the poster really was Brian's divorced wife. I think some of the things she said were too far out there, and just flaming.
But it caught my eye that she mentioned the cousin thing.
(following is quoted from suite101)
I am in the process of submitting information I have to the FBI, but how in the world do you think a little boy and his cousin knew exactly where to dig in the sand on that beach. I know their family led them to it.... And, in response to the movies out there, 3/4 of that is not true. That's not even close to what the real story is.... Brian Ingram's father actually looks like the FBI drawing of DB Cooper. I could go on ALL DAY, I have so much information on this subject... When I was married into the family, it was so hush-hush, I wasn't allowed to ask questions and this was never discussed. Most of the information I have is because I have researched and found it out for myself.... The Ingram family has the answers.... I feel sorry for all the false leads out there. I also saw the story about the widow that thinks her deceased husband is DB Cooper; I know she truely believes this...I cried watching her story, because that's how strongly I believe the INGRAM family is connected to all of this....
-- posted by satelliteman501
(endquote)
she also flamed in a comment to this article at the bottom.
http://newsok.com/article/3200118/?print=1
She was also interviewed by the Oregonian, (edit) or was it The Columbian?, so a reporter really did speak to her about the child support claims.
basically, from what I could tell, all the flaming was coming from Christy, and she was Brian's ex-wife.
Possibility of being wrong, but I'm pretty confident what I say is correct here.
(edit) Note that Christy sold or tried to sell a cooper bill on Ebay before the Brian auctions. Apparently mentioned daughter's name "Kara" in the ebay auction listing. She says she got some of them as part of the divorce? May be remarried with different last name now.
That was one of her first contacts with me. We would have some private contacts after that. Later I would talk to Brian's attorney and then to Brian himself only once. I basically found no more information that what was presented in the forum and in the books - no real comfirmation of what is true and what is not (regarding the money find).
I accepted the fact that the wife was upset because he had supposedly not supported his child and if he got any money from the bills that back child support was owed. There was also and new wife and her 3 kids in the package.
This is a domestic problem and I know it is not a wise thing to get involved in this - so I keep my distance and what I have said above is in the media.
Outside of the above - I will state NO more about the above subject.
Snowmman read you PM.
I accepted the fact that the wife was upset because he had supposedly not supported his child and if he got any money from the bills that back child support was owed. There was also and new wife and her 3 kids in the package.
This is a domestic problem and I know it is not a wise thing to get involved in this - so I keep my distance and what I have said above is in the media.
Outside of the above - I will state NO more about the above subject.
Snowmman read you PM.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 197
Georger - what else could explain the smaller pieces being deeper or did they just sift there in the recovery process like the grits and cereal.
Reply> I wasnt there during the recovery or the excavation so have no idea what is sifted or moved
around etc - would have to see it to get an idea.
Generally speaking, lighter objects 'float' in the
strata of which they are a part and go where the
strata goes if something changes . . .
This is all conjecture based on a 2nd or even 3rd hand reports.
georger 197
QuoteThat was one of her first contacts with me. We would have some private contacts after that. Later I would talk to Brian's attorney and then to Brian himself only once. I basically found no more information that what was presented in the forum and in the books - no real comfirmation of what is true and what is not (regarding the money find).
I accepted the fact that the wife was upset because he had supposedly not supported his child and if he got any money from the bills that back child support was owed. There was also and new wife and her 3 kids in the package.
This is a domestic problem and I know it is not a wise thing to get involved in this - so I keep my distance and what I have said above is in the media.
Outside of the above - I will state NO more about the above subject.
Snowmman read you PM.
REPLY: When did you first contact any of the Ingrams, or they contact you? Dates . . .
snowmman 3
to be clear,
I don't take anything supposedly said by Christy, if it was her, on face value.
What I was interested in was the tone of what she was saying, not the exact little things. Like I don't think anyone in the Ingram clan was Cooper. That's a little nutty. (although it's weird Brian eventually joined an airborne division as a medic after high school)
She (Christy) apparently says she learned most details from her own research. So she could have even picked up the cousin thing from press articles. But, the cousin angle wasn't widely reported, as you folks know, cause you weren't aware of it.
I remember reading an article where Brian was joking about how he didn't tell his new wife (either while dating or all the way until after marriage?) about the money right away. He implied it was because of all the weird attention. But it got me thinking about whether it really was something "not talked about in the family"...possibly for some very minor reason, like disagreement about the story that was told or something.
Another odd thing was the father's (Harold Dwayne Ingram) apparent use of the middle or first name at different times? and the attached thing. It was minor, and was waived/dismissed pretty quickly. But it's interesting.
Just completing random thoughts on stuff on the web.
I don't take anything supposedly said by Christy, if it was her, on face value.
What I was interested in was the tone of what she was saying, not the exact little things. Like I don't think anyone in the Ingram clan was Cooper. That's a little nutty. (although it's weird Brian eventually joined an airborne division as a medic after high school)
She (Christy) apparently says she learned most details from her own research. So she could have even picked up the cousin thing from press articles. But, the cousin angle wasn't widely reported, as you folks know, cause you weren't aware of it.
I remember reading an article where Brian was joking about how he didn't tell his new wife (either while dating or all the way until after marriage?) about the money right away. He implied it was because of all the weird attention. But it got me thinking about whether it really was something "not talked about in the family"...possibly for some very minor reason, like disagreement about the story that was told or something.
Another odd thing was the father's (Harold Dwayne Ingram) apparent use of the middle or first name at different times? and the attached thing. It was minor, and was waived/dismissed pretty quickly. But it's interesting.
Just completing random thoughts on stuff on the web.
When did 1974 enter the mix?
I am very surprised to have you even consider adding the human element. Now you have my attention. Perhaps my screaming that the money be tested using todays' forensic has finally been heard.
Could the test have shown that the money was buried in another location prior to entering the water?
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