Realizing The Beginning Of A "Chain"

[rgoper 0]

as long as we're here in the "Safety And Training" forum, i'd like to share how i have investigated industrial accidents in my profession for the last 27 years. i have always been taught when ever investigating the "cause" of an accident, whether fatal, or non fatal, or simply a first-aid accident to go back to the "first link" in the "chain of events" that led to the accident. in each and every accident, we can probably (more times than not) go back and say "well, if this, or that would, or would not have happned, this accident wouldn't have happned" as i've said previously in these forums, hindsight is 20/20. so what do we need to do? safety awareness levels need to be heightned. a lot of times we get so "in" to the sky dive because we're looking so forward to the adrenaline rush, we forget to leave enough space between ourselfs, and the previous jumper(s) case and point here in this *example* is the first "link" in the "chain" has now formed, what will the next "link" in the chain be? who knows, more often than not, the "links" don't form into "chains" how many "close calls" don't we all witness every time we go out and sky dive? if we're being honest with ourselfs, i'm sure we could all recite at least 1 or 2 "close calls" last time we were at the DZ. so, having said all of that, we must ask ourselfs, "what can i do to make the sport safer?" i think this will draw a mixture of responses, as for my own opinion, i'll scream it from now, untill i die, safety, and training. this is where it starts, and this is where it should end. all too often i see the most common of safety rules being broken, but i am guilty just as much as everyone else, because most of the time, i choose to try and "fit in" and keep my mouth shut, for fear of being chastised by fellow jumpers, and who amoung us wishes to be the "square" that cannot fit in the "round" hole? so we have to ascertain where our priorities lie. sure, sky diving is the most adrenaline charged sport i've ever participated in, also the most dangerous, but, it can be done safely with the whole "community" looking out for that first "link" to a possible forming "chain" take care, be safe Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Agreed - when you think about it, we're only about 15 seconds (if not less) away from death on every dive. Skydiving is definatly a dangerous sport, but if everything is looked at, it can be made a lot safer.
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[billvon 2,463]

In most cases, the first link in the chain happens on the ground, often days or months before the incident itself. It happens when a jumper gets a small main despite several people advising him against it, or when they decide to get a container based on looks and smallness, rather than compatibility with reasonably sized canopies. It happens when, rather than completing everything in the A license checklist, they get someone "to sign them off." It happens when they're up all night partying at a boogie, but still intend to jump that helicopter in the morning.
Sadly, it's often considered cooler to invite accidents rather than avoid them early. It's cooler, for example, to run to the plane with rig over your shoulder and jumpsuit half on instead of waiting for the plane for two minutes with your rig on. It's not cool to ask for a pin check, or wear a hard helmet, or check the upper winds before you take off.
Then the second incident in the chain occurs. Maybe someone cuts them off during landing, or someone slides across their container on exit. Perhaps someone is above them at pull time and they have to take it a little lower. Normally a small issue, but without enough experience under that tiny canopy, or without good pin covers and a gear check, the incident suddenly gets a lot larger.
Then they make that final mistake. They toggle turn their tiny canopy at 50 feet, or they spend an extra 5 seconds finding their pud, or they cut away a good main in a two-out situation. Inevitably, the blame is placed on the last incident - but usually, as you mention, it's a long series of events that began well before they even set foot in the plane that sends a jumper to the hospital (or worse.)
-bill von

[RichM 0]

In my short 5 years in the sport I've seen lot's and been a major facor in some of those. From each of these I have survived (so far) and learned. I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who has 100 jumps, he has just gone through the UK B licence, so he has been breifed, tested and cleared for spotting, jump mastering and flight line checking. He commented on how much he had learned about the complex decisions that are made on every lift, yet prior to this had little idea that it was happening. The only comment I could think of that was vaguely sensible was the more experienced skydivers look out for the less experienced, and if you see something you think is ikky don't be frightened to question it.
It seems lacking as an answer.
Rich

[rgoper 0]

...i think "self examination" is a good idea at times as well. i know for a fact i don't always make the right decisions, but i try, and more often than not, learn from my misstakes, and other's as well. from reading a couple of post(s) here in the Safety And Training Forums, i get the feeling, even though we're not at the DZ right now, a couple of "links" have already been formed. be careful........
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[diverdriver 5]

So, so true. You can see the attitudes on the ground sometimes and you go "You know...I just don't want to be in the air with this person ever."
The first question is always "How do we identify the chain?" But the most important question is: "How do we break the chain?"
Do you ground the jumper? What if you don't have that authority? Do you scold the jumper? Do you chastise the pilot who cut it close on fuel and landed dead stick (ok, no metal bent) but needed a little help at the other end of the runway? Do you just leave the operation and turn a blind eye to the situation?
The question is: "How are you going to get involved to make a difference?"
Chris Schindler

[skybytch 259]

Like Bill said, I think the first link in any "accident chain" happens on the ground. Whether that's in gear selection (canopy choice, AAD or no AAD, RSL or no RSL, etc), jump timing (hungover - or even still drunk, too windy, cloud cover, etc), dive planning (group too big and/or dive too advanced for ability levels, etc), packing, gear maintainence and other gear issues, even aircraft and DZ selection...
What can each of us do to make the sport safer for ourselves and others? Use your brain before you get on the plane. Make choices on the ground that are going to give you the best chance of survival when shit happens in the air. You can't control every situation, but you can up your odds of walking away when shit happens to you.
Learn to recognize "red flags." Don't ignore that little voice that tells you that something isn't right or that maybe you forgot to check something. Don't be afraid to step off a load if you aren't sure about something - there will always be another load going up, even if it means waiting for another day.
Don't assume that you are immune to shit happening, either. I know I harp on this but it's a point that I think bears constant repetition... you can do everything right and still die in this sport. If you, or your family, can't accept that... then perhaps skydiving isn't for you.
And never be afraid to point out a possible "first link" to someone else - even if you know they will give you shit for it. You just may save someone from injury or death someday - and if they don't listen, well, at least you tried. Having gotten shit in the past for pointing such things out to people who later got injured due to the very thing I mentioned... knowing I tried meant a lot to me.
Have you ever done a skydive that was so awesome that you'd gladly give up everything you value in life - everything you've touched, seen, smelled, held, loved - in exchange for having done? I haven't. And I doubt anyone else has either. Safety starts before you even arrive at the dz. Please... concentrate on safety - I want to meet and jump with each of you someday.
pull & flare,
lisa
---
On the other hand...you have different fingers

[rgoper 0]

**The question is: "How are you going to get involved to make a difference?"**
Chris:
good question, one i anticipated coming up when i posted this. i always try to posts, and then see who is thinking. you are, there's the first step in "breaking the chain" i think the incentive for all of us to join forces, and work towards our ultimate goal of "zero tolerance" will be key in this quest. i've been chastised on several different occasions for bringing several things to light, and others as well. at first, it made me stop doing it, but finally, i couldn't "turn a blind eye" any longer. i don't hang out at the DZ after the sunset load and visit, so i'm not running any popularity contests, so i have a bit of an edge here. i also think more safety and training days are in order. having a load organizer load the plane in the sequence of exit, we generally disscuss this upon boarding the jumpship, and talk about deployment altitudes on the ride up. i'd like to see a designated S&TA on the ground observing the landings, deployments, tracks etc...there generally is no set flight landing pattern, (left-right) "link" one, i've seen several close calls because of this one. i think it's going to be up to us to "police" ourselves, before the decision is made that someone else governs it for us. thanks for the response, good one.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[CanEHdian 0]

Well said folks, good thread, and thanks.
Been lurking so long that I habitually ignore my impulse to comment or respond. Couldn't help it on this one. There's a lot of us out there reading, especially in safety & training, and we realize that information is the key - let's keep it up.
Blue ones,
CanEHdian

[rgoper 0]

**Well said folks, good thread, and thanks.**
with attitudes like this, we're on our way to achieving our objective, forming the first "link" of safety has begun, now let's continue our efforts! i worked for a drilling contractor once who's safety motto was "safety is NO ACCIDENTS" this is an achievable goal, as long as we utilize "zero tolerance"
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Hooknswoop 19]

"The question is: "How are you going to get involved to make a difference?""
You can stand up and say this isn't right, but I'll lay odds that no one will stand up with you, then you out of the group or banned from the DZ.
Hook

[rgoper 0]

**You can stand up and say this isn't right, but I'll lay odds that no one will stand up with you, then you out of the group or banned from the DZ.**
this is "sad, but true" but one things for sure, there are those of us that will walk through the depths of hell for an individual with the integrity to stand up for what is right. somewhere, somehow we've got to "draw the line" at such retaliation, it's this sort of nonsense that keeps a lot of unplanned events from being reported, but we must keep a positive attitude, and one things for sure, at the end of the day, we all have to sleep well.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[billvon 2,463]

>You can stand up and say this isn't right, but I'll lay odds that no one will
>stand up with you, then you out of the group or banned from the DZ.
Well, right, but at least it's easier to live with yourself. And if just one other person does it, now there's a trend, and the best I's are leaving and going other places. People will at least start to notice.
-bill von

[riggerrob 561]

Listening to your own inner voice and sticking to your own hard deck is probably the most difficult thing you can do in this lifetime.
The second most difficult thing is finding a way to tell you friends to slow down without hurting their feelings.
Standing up and stating your opinions is difficult and dangerous. Many people do not want to listen to opinions that differ from their own, so their first instinct is to shut you up, their second instinct is to ignore you, but if you persist, they will try to kick you off the DZ.
I have an annoying habit of being ahead of or behind the times and some people don't want to hear my opinions, so when they tire of listening to me, they try to kick me off the DZ.
For example, 16 years ago I tried to introduce the notion of tandems as a paying profession to a small DZ in Ontario. They branded me a whore and slandered me off the DZ. They may have forced me to move to other DZs, but all my income over the last ten years has come from tandems and rigging. In the long run, I was proven right, but no-one wanted to hear it back then.
Another example occurred 10 years ago when I publically disagreed with an AFF Course Conductor over whether students should be allowed to jump hand-deploys. In the short run my comments established an adversarial relationship that prevented me from earning an AFF rating. In the long run, most USPA DZs have adopted my attitude.
'told you so!"
I have not backed down from stating my opinions, but these days, I am getting more subtle with age. Sometimes I wait until the end of the day to state my opinion. The response is often "You are the third person to mention that." Some skydivers need to hear the same message from three or more people before they change their ways.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Okay, jumping in a little late here, as is well known and discussed here in this thread, the first link is often the hardest to identify and control, but the chain can be broken at any stage, and its never too late to do so.
In my mind there are three things to consider.
Knowledge
Vigilance
Communication
These three factors form a safety triangle and are inherently interdependent, remove any one from the triangle and it just doesn't work.....A bit like a fire triangle, if you know what I mean.
In skydiving terms you can interchange knowledge with skill/ability for certain circumstances.
A couple of people here have stated that they have found things to their dislike on DZs and have been run off for voicing their opinions.
I'm dismayed that such an attitude exists. In my opinion any individual that ignores or plays down safety is asking for trouble, and will suffer in one way or another, either in personal or financial costs.
The first two 'corners' of the triangle are the easiest parts to manage, its the communication side that most people, myself included, often have difficulty with. Sometimes we have to employ a little psychology, or politics to get our message across, eg explaining rather than shouting, coaxing and educating rather than punishing etc.
But sometimes the parties concerned just don't get the message, and sadly people get hurt. This is true not just in skydiving but also in everyday life.
Good thread though folks.......
Cya
D

[diverdriver 5]

Hook, if you're banned from the DZ then you don't want to be at that DZ anyway.
However, I ALSO believe there is a proper way to bring up safety issues and that is NOT (at least not right off the bat) yelling and screaming around the hangar about an issue. If you have an issue then bring it up with the person involved. If that doesn't seem to take effect then take it to the DZO. If you do not have a satisfactory result and you really believe in what you are doing then you might ask some other jumers that you trust in their opinion to give a straight honest answer. If they say that you are on the right track then it's easier to persue your issue. If they don't agree with you then maybe you asked the wrong people. Following what your gut tells you can save your life and maybe the lives of the people around you.
I've left DZs before due to safety (and other) issues. I've had friends killed in multiple jump plane accidents. Build a spine and say something. Persue it if you think it needs persuing.
What I don't like is when I see people posting here about what they perceive as a safety issue and they don't really know what they are talking about. They make their judgement and don't persue the issue with the DZ or DZO at all. Maybe there was a good explanation for what happened. It's a double edged sword. This place can give a lot of good info. And it can also be used to further someone's personal agenda for slander. I've posted things before that I got slammed/flamed for and after thinking about it I agreed with them and wrote a follow up on how my opinion changed. The posts that got me to thinking the most were the ones that did not talk down to me. That explained their view point and then left it up for me to decide.
Chris

[Hooknswoop 19]

"However, I ALSO believe there is a proper way to bring up safety issues and that is NOT (at least not right off the bat) yelling and screaming around the hangar about an issue. If you have an issue then bring it up with the person involved. If that doesn't seem to take effect then take it to the DZO. "
Before I respond, was this directed towards me, or is it general advice?
Hook