Clear-and-pull from altitude?

[Cepheus 0]

What's reasonable? I've read websites with people who talk about doing these from 14k -- is that realistic? For a recent AFF graduate? And what kind of weather conditions should I expect / plan for?

--
Skydive -- testing gravity, one jump at a time.

[flyangel2 2]

Quote

What's reasonable? I've read websites with people who talk about doing these from 14k -- is that realistic? For a recent AFF graduate? And what kind of weather conditions should I expect / plan for?

I thought the reason for recent AFF graduates to do hop and pop's was to prepare them for emergency exits. IMO, I don't think that getting out any higher than 4,000 is necessary.
As for weather conditions, it depends on the weather at the DZ. I guess I'm not understanding the question.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Cepheus 0]

It's in the interest of playing with the canopy, to be honest... That and I want to enjoy the view.

--
Skydive -- testing gravity, one jump at a time.

[PhreeZone 15]

I used to do 1 or 2 every few weeks then with CRW you do it too. Just figure out the spot, since it will be different then the freefallers (hint its WAY longer), watch your location and don't get down wind of the landing zone until you are ready to land and make sure the pilots know. Some times pilots circle around a few times while loosing altitude and this way they can be on the look out for you.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[flyangel2 2]

Oh, now I understand. IMO, going to 5,000 is enough if it's winter time where you are. I would get too cold if I go any higher. I've been very lucky to be able to do some CRW with some of the best guys out there, and during the summer we will ground ourselves due to turmoils. But, you're doing a solo, so you don't have to worry about the turmoils with other canopies around. Some days the winds aloft are higher, and that makes for a very nice cross county canopy ride. You can even learn how to steer the canopy by leaning into the harness to give your hands/arms a rest.
Checking with more experienced jumpers at your DZ is a good idea before heading up, to see if they can give you some good advice.
Have fun

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Michele 1]

I did a hi hopnpop, 11.5K during the canopy control class. It was great, but really cold (yes, I'm a wimp).

Everyone knew I was doing it, and it was in the middle of the week. It was a lot of work, but that's cause I had a coach up there with me, getting me to really work the canopy...

The trippiest thing I remember was seeing the plane UNDER me when it was coming back down. I knew the pilot knew I was there, but I was kinda nervous nonetheless...it was still very, very weird to see the plane below me.

They're valuable and fun, but watch your spot (we were let out way west of the DZ, but made it back just fine.)

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[jceman 1]

I've done plenty of high altitude H&Ps, mainlyon sunset loads, to enjoy the view as well as the times just to learn my canopy.

Things to keep in mind beside the obvious need to make sure you keep yourself warm:

Make sure it is okay with the others in the air, this means notifying the pilot and manifest. If there is a conflict with other traffic or ATC, they will inform you and help you find the best altitude to pull at.

Be sure to get an update on the winds aloft so that you can adjust your spot.

Make certain you take either money for a phone call (or a cell phone) to contact the DZ if you have to land off.

Take either a Powertool or a pullup cord with you to field pack if you land off; it's a lot easier carrying all that stuff it is packed. If you can't pack well, you can always redo the pack job once you get back to the DZ.

Have fun and be safe.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[parachutist 1]

Quote

What's reasonable? I've read websites with people who talk about doing these from 14k -- is that realistic? For a recent AFF graduate? And what kind of weather conditions should I expect / plan for?

If the winds are relatively calm from ground all the way up to 14k then it is all very simple... You just need to be the last person out of the plane and deploy your chute... fly it around and keep an eye on your intended landing area and alternate landing areas.

If winds are higher than 20 knots at any altitude, though, it can get pretty complicated when trying to determine the best exit spot, especially when wind shear is involved. Under these windy circumstances I would recommend that you not deploy at 14k unless you have an experienced canopy flyer going out with you. Since you are flying a light wing loading, it would be very easy for you to get into a position that would not allow you to land where you intend if the winds are above 15 knots.

Things to do:

- Before the plane takes off, notify the pilot of your intention to deploy at 14k. Ask the pilot what the winds are doing aloft... even if you have already read the wind conditions written on a chalk board at the DZ... The pilot will likey have much more up-to-date info for you.

- Wear some warm clothes and gloves. Make sure that the gloves fit well and that you can feel things such as yor handles through the gloves. Also make sure that your warm clothes do not get in the way of your handles... tuck in your shirts (it sux when a shirt tail gets blown over your handles).

- Exit last. Sometimes tandem masters will try to convince you that No, they should go out last.... but they are just accustomed to freeflyers & RW types. Explain to the tandem types that since you are going to be under canopy immediately after exiting, it only makes sense that you should exit last. In addition to eliminating the possibilty of someone freefalling through your canopy, this will give you a long spot, which is good (assuming jump run is flying upwind).

Chris

[darkvapor 0]

Personally, I love high altitude h&p's. Did one just a few weeks ago. Winds were only about 16 knots so no problems with getting blown into the next county, but it was about 0°F. I thought I could handle the cold, but I was frozen numb by the time I got down. In fact it was so cold I barely felt like playing around. I just flew in lazy circles and enjoyed the view. Some of the more experienced guys jokingly warned me that I would freeze to death. Ofcouse, being young and foolish, I opened right at 14k. Just make sure you are last out (usually works best), talk to the pilot, and have fun. My favorite part is watching the plane bank to begin his descent right as I am leaving the door of the Otter.

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

Things to do

Hehehehehee....just make sure you get away from the airplane before you deploy the P/C. Don't hit the side of the airplane with your hackey handle......

[Squeak 17]

Quote

I thought the reason for recent AFF graduates to do hop and pop's was to prepare them for emergency exits. IMO, I don't think that getting out any higher than 4,000 is necessary.

I did my HnP from 6000 yesterday, If I had been on the previous hotload fromm 2500 I would have been in a whole different world, By the time i cutaway I would have been REALLY low. Glad I had more height to compensate for lack of skill. When I was under my reserve I was at about 2800, if i had left at 4000 I would have been below 1000 feet. If I have been on the previous load I may have been 6 feet under

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

If I had been on the previous hotload fromm 2500

You shouldn't be getting out that low until you get another 100 or so jumps under your belt.....

[flyangel2 2]

Quote

Quote

I thought the reason for recent AFF graduates to do hop and pop's was to prepare them for emergency exits. IMO, I don't think that getting out any higher than 4,000 is necessary.

I did my HnP from 6000 yesterday, If I had been on the previous hotload fromm 2500 I would have been in a whole different world, By the time i cutaway I would have been REALLY low. Glad I had more height to compensate for lack of skill. When I was under my reserve I was at about 2800, if i had left at 4000 I would have been below 1000 feet. If I have been on the previous load I may have been 6 feet under

Yes, you admit that your experience level is low, but you can't plan what load you will be on that does force you out at a low altitude. Just something to think about
I have to laugh to myself when I'm helping a recent AFF graduate out the door (no insult to you intended) doing their first hop n pop. They look out the door when you're at 4,000 and you tell them to exit and they get all nervous. I learned over 22 years ago doing S/L and the higher up I went, the more nervous I got
Now I know I maybe opening a can of worms with this post, but it's IMO. Each their own and find your comfort level.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Michele 1]

Hi, Mary!

Quote

you admit that your experience level is low, but you can't plan what load you will be on that does force you out at a low altitude.

True. But I think that at Squeak's jump numbers - and indeed mine - if we had to get out lower than 2500, we'd be pulling silver first. At least, I know I would, with a fairly lightly loaded Spectre which is slow to open on the best of days in perfect body position after a decent speed is reached.

An emergency procedure as we are exiting the aircraft is a different thing, (isn't it?) than going out at 4k, getting stable and pulling...

As for a regular HnP, why not go at an alti which would challenge you, but still allow for the first (or 5th) time nerves?

And lastly, Squeak, I understand what you mean about being at a lower alti w/ the cutaway. When I had mine, by the time I figured out I was not gonna land this chute and got the reserve out, I was still above my decision alti - barely. I am sure that the next time I cutaway, I will respond more quickly to the situation, but at the time, I was unsure...for a while. It's that "while" that would've killed me had I been lower....

Just my .02 though, and granted it's from a far more inexperienced level than most posters...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[councilman24 36]

It helps a lot to let go of your toggles once in a while, lower your arms and get the blood flowing. One of the prettiest jumps I ever did was a night dive, opening about 6000'. Moonlight over a low fog hanging in the low areas. Kind of expected a dragon to fly by. One of the things you have time to do when you open high is to check out the thin little lines, the few pieces of webbing, and the small canopy holding you up. (even 250 sq ft looks small when you have 10,000 between your toes)

Enjoy the view, look around, really check out your gear, and don't get scared when you realize that 10 lbs of nylon is holding you up.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

Enjoy the view, look around, really check out your gear, and don't get scared when you realize that 10 lbs of nylon is holding you up.

Ya know...I have 316 jumps now and that thought can STILL unnerve me a bit on high H&P's.. Something just doesn't seem right about it...

[councilman24 36]

After 2500 it still unnerves me a little too. You have time to think about it. And look for airplane traffic.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[parachutist 1]

Quote

Hehehehehee....just make sure you get away from the airplane before you deploy the P/C. Don't hit the side of the airplane with your hackey handle......

Good point. Been there, got the T-shirt

Chris

[PhreeZone 15]

>>just make sure you get away from the airplane before you deploy the P/C. Don't hit >>the side of the airplane with your hackey handle

>Good point. Been there, got the T-shirt

Ever been able to still see the faces of the people (usually in a state of shock) in a tailgate when you have a full canopy over your head?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[dterrick 0]

Quote

Hehehehehee....just make sure you get away from the airplane before you deploy the P/C. Don't hit the side of the airplane with your hackey handle......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Good point. Been there,

you guys MUST be jumping a left side door. In a Cessna, the only way I could hackey the plane is in a sit exit and somehow I doubt I'd try to deploy like that. Then again...

Dave.

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[trmnljnky 0]

Quote

It's in the interest of playing with the canopy, to be honest... That and I want to enjoy the view.

or CReW

Byron

[Cepheus 0]

Quote

or CReW

Hehe, true, but I'll worry about that when I have more than 12 jumps to my name.

--
Skydive -- testing gravity, one jump at a time.

[PhreeZone 15]

12 jumps is on the low end to learn CRW, but at 20 jumps you should be ok and its a great skill to learn.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,436]

>By the time i cutaway I would have been REALLY low.

Just to clarify here - if you had exited at 2500, and had a mal, you would be worried about not getting through emergency procedures in time? If you want to begin reserve procedures by 1600 feet (USPA recommendations) then you have over 10 seconds to exit, deploy and realize you have a problem.

10 seconds is a long time. I would be worried if I found myself needing more than 10 seconds to exit, deploy and see my canopy open. Keep in mind that the reason this is important is that one day you may have to bail out at 1500 feet - and if you can't open a main and check it in that time, the chances you will be able to do so with a less-familiar canopy that you have never deployed before are a bit lower.

[flyangel2 2]

Quote

you admit that your experience level is low, but you can't plan what load you will be on that does force you out at a low altitude.

True. But I think that at Squeak's jump numbers - and indeed mine - if we had to get out lower than 2500, we'd be pulling silver first.

Quote

I too would be pulling that handle.

***As for a regular HnP, why not go at an alti which would challenge you, but still allow for the first (or 5th) time nerves?

I would never force anyone to get out at a lower altitude than what they feel comfortable doing. But IMO, the sooner the better.

I'm sure there are some people that know the speed/time table, but if I remember correct, doesn't it take 10 seconds to get to terminal? Help me out people What's the numbers?

Here's some informtaion from the Skydiver's Information Manual. Yes, I agree they are guildlines, and not rules.

S/L Progression Training

5.10 FIRST FREEFALL (1 JUMP)
Freefall from 3,200 feet AGL. To be made on the same day as the last properly performed PRCP or PPCT.

For the Level Eight Student

8-1.03 level 8A

A. Targeted Learning Objective:
1. Solo clear and pull (five second freefall)
B. Procedures:
1. Solo clear and pull:
a. A novice who has not yet performed a clear and pull is trained by a JM to perform a controlled clear and pull with a freefall of approximately five seconds. The jump is made from 3,500 feet to 4,000 feet and observed by the Jumpmaster.
b. This exercise should be satisfactorily completed very soon after graduation from the AFF or IAF programs.
c. This exercise will give a novice confidence and prepare him or her for the low altitude exit and clear and pull he/she will eventually have to make.


I might just be thinking along these lines since I learned how to skydive doing the S/L progression and was use to the lower altitude. There is nothing wrong with either the S/L or AFF progressions, each has their own "good" and "bad" to offer.

So now the question I throw out there is this: why can a S/L progression student do his/her first freefall from 4,000 and no one thinks twice about it, and an AFF progression student isn't in a hurry to do their hop n pop from 4,000. Hummmm?

Again, I'm not against either training avenues.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey