0
TXJumper

Unrated AFF Jump Masters

Recommended Posts

Quote

By current, are you referring to currency (i.e. X number of jumps per year) or how recently you paid money to get a new date typed on some piece of paper. If the latter, what does that have to do with safety?



What does renewing your driver's license have to do with safety? Get caught driving without one........

Derek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The two DZ's I have been to are very thorough.. both instructors at each DZ are AFF-I rated on every student jump. (I checked their ratings beforehand in the members section of the PASA website).
But it does get me wondering "What if..."

If a student were to complete all Levels of an AFF course with unrated Intructors, would the completion still be recognised by the national skydiving authority (USPA/PASA/etc.) when applying for an A-licence?

In the student jumps that most of us (DZ.com members) have done, our log books are signed by our Instructor/JM, who also include their Instructor/JM registration number, right ?

So, anyone taking a look at your logbook, with access to the qualification ratings of Instructors and JMs referenced by their number, would be able to tell soon enough if you were trained by an unrated 'AFF-I'. Could this then have negative effects on the student's progression once the authorities are on the case.. making him/her repeat levels again with rated instructors.. or denying their A-licence application ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote



Because a USPA Coach can do categories G & H. Once they're done with that, "technically" they can jump with anyone (within reason) until they are off student status (completed 25 skydives and completed the A License proficiency card).

Please clarify this for everyone.


I believe that students are now required to be under the supervision of a rated jumper (coach or above) until they have a license.



never pull low......unless you are

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote


If you have a rating, and wish to use it, Keep it current.



By current, are you referring to currency (i.e. X number of jumps per year) or how recently you paid money to get a new date typed on some piece of paper. If the latter, what does that have to do with safety?

Blues,
Dave

Current means you've met the proficiency requirements set forth by USPA. There is alot more involved in obtaining and keeping current an AFF rating than sending inyour money, although some folks that don't or can't meet those requirements will tell you different.
John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Current means you've met the proficiency requirements set forth by USPA. There is alot more involved in obtaining and keeping current an AFF rating than sending inyour money, although some folks that don't or can't meet those requirements will tell you different.



But what if you've met all the requirements, but haven't sent in your money? You'll be a proficient, safe, unrated instructor.

Remember I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I send in my dues each year solely because I enjoy teaching students and feel that a current date on my little piece of paper is less likely to invite a lawsuit in the event a student of mine is ever injured while under my supervision. That date doesn't make me a safer instructor, but an expired date would probably be interpreted poorly, and I don't need that kind of trouble regardless of how misguided it might be.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Holy crap.

I recalled (Which is still on the USPA website),

Quote

"An appropriately-rated USPA Instructor must directly supervise each student jump until the student is cleared to self supervise in freefall during Category E. A USPA Coach or the USPA-approved equivalent may conduct freefall training and supervise jumps for those students in Categories E through H. Until the USPA A license, all student training remains the responsibility of the USPA Instructor.



The actual BSR states;

Quote

a. All student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by a USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor.

b. All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA Coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license.



Thank you, Rick

K.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also our DZ does not charge for our coaching jumps as the rated coaches jump with the low time jumpers to further their skills after AFF and keep them jumping. We do not have a DZ where the experienced jumpers won't jump with new jumpers we do it for the sport and the fun of teaching--if we sucked every last dollar out of them for coaching jumps they are broke and can no longer jump!
Voodew


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
USPA can pull their group membership


---> true, but that does little to keep them from doing whatever they wish with unrated instructors...

and that isnt a very good deterrent.:S

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

What does renewing your driver's license have to do with safety? Get caught driving without one........



The thing is whats gonna happen here? Nothing!

USPA will not do anything, and the FAA does not care. (You don't have to be a member of the USPA, or follow BSR's in the US).

And I know plenty of jumpers that went through the AFF course and didn't really have a clue...They just checked the right blocks.

Does that really make them safer?

I know a guy that had a rating from another country, but not the USPA....Is he unsafe?

While I don't think its a good idea....We already know it happens. USPA knows and once again does nothing about it.
The FAA does not care about it.

So if you are unhappy vote with your feet.

But they are not doing ANYTHING ILLEGAL.

They are just not following the rules of a volluntary orginization. That has show that it has no balls...Whoop de fucking do!

I don't follow the rules of the NRA....I'm not a member.

If you don't like it, don't go there...But there is nothing wrong with it.

Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If I understand correctly:

They basically do whaterver they want AS LONG AS they don't call their program "AFF", their DZ "USPA DZ" and their instructors "AFF Jumpmasters".

Right?

Flip


There are very few laws that apply to skydivers. You might want to read part 105.



never pull low......unless you are

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This particular DZ does call their program AFF, and their jump master AFF JM's. It's on all their brochures and advertising. They also don't bother to let their students and customers know that they are unrated. That was one of my biggest concerns. After some checking, all of their tandem instructors are rated and are current.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This particular DZ does call their program AFF, and their jump master AFF JM's. It's on all their brochures and advertising. They also don't bother to let their students and customers know that they are unrated. That was one of my biggest concerns. After some checking, all of their tandem instructors are rated and are current.


I think that it is very rare that dz's use unrated tandem instructors. It may even be illegal. A shortage of AFF jumpmasters causes some dz's to improvise. They shouldn't call their program AFF if they are using instructors that aren't rated.



never pull low......unless you are

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the wondering is that there were some posts slamming a particular packer, possibly at the same DZ (I'm not that familiar with central Texas DZs), by someone with very close to the same userid.

Sometimes gripes make it onto dz.com.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It may even be illegal.



FAR 105

"(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator. "

The FAA has deemed the USPA Tandem Instructor course "acceptable to the Administrator.". If the Tandem Instructor has a current rating from the manufacturer OR the USPA and a current medical, they are legal. Notice the FAR doesn't say anything about currency requirements or renewal, or membership requirements. If the 'Parachutist in Command" does not have a rating, then it is a violation of the FAR's.

There is no FAA requirement for any certification for AFF Instructors. Nor is there any FAA requirement for student AAD's, RSL's, square reserves, minimum training, etc. I do think that if a student believes that they are paying for 2 rated Instructors, or 1 rated Instructor, they should get 2 rated or 1 rated Instructor.

If you look at what is legal for student training, it should scare you. USPA has much tighter requirements, but has no authority to enforce those requirements and they don't attempt to when there are BSR violations.

Derek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am the packer that was slammed by this person last year. Last year when they were on here the user id TXJUMPER was Paula Ramsey, they have since changed it to Daniel Stinson. If this person has a genuine concern they need to talk to the DZO or the S&TA about this.

Samantha Shows
Samantha Weaver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If this person has a genuine
concern they need to talk to the DZO or the S&TA about this.



Why? Its not illegal.

If the USPA does not care that a USPA DZ (I am not sure it is) is not using non USPA rated I's...Then why should anyone else care.

And if its not a USPA DZ...Then the USPA has no power there at all (I would say the USPA has no power anyway, anywhere and I only am a member becasue I have to to jump at some DZ's...I personally think they are worthless).
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I would say the USPA has no power anyway, anywhere and I only am a member becasue I have to to jump at some DZ's...I personally think they are worthless.



Having the power or not over DZs is one thing, but you cannot say they are worthless. They set a standard of training and safety and are a political representation for us.

Flip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Having the power or not over DZs is one thing, but you cannot say they are worthless.



Really?!?!? Watch close....They are worthless.

See I can do it.

Quote

They set a standard
of training and safety and are a political representation for us.



I'll grant the political part....As for setting the standard for training....

USPA didn't aprove of Tandems, AFF, BOC for students and a bunch of other stuff...

People did these things with out them, and THEN the USPA said...Hey thats a good idea. USPA fought several of these when they were started.

The ISP is NOT manditory.
The coach ticket started as a good idea, then got watered down like crazy.
They had the BIC which was the biggest joke around...Now its gone because it was so stupid.
NO USPA course or instruction is the same at ANY DZ...No standards anywhere.

I used to think that they were powerful....Then I looked around and delt with them a few times.....They will not do anything if it requires extra work for them...And they fight the good things.

They wanted to disallow the team Synchronicity from representing the US at the world meet....They had to let them because they did follow the rules..USPA would rather have not sent them, and gave them NO support.

USPA sucks...but what else are you going to do?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0