Unrated AFF Jump Masters

[Hooknswoop 19]

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By current, are you referring to currency (i.e. X number of jumps per year) or how recently you paid money to get a new date typed on some piece of paper. If the latter, what does that have to do with safety?

What does renewing your driver's license have to do with safety? Get caught driving without one........

Derek

[metalslug 31]

The two DZ's I have been to are very thorough.. both instructors at each DZ are AFF-I rated on every student jump. (I checked their ratings beforehand in the members section of the PASA website).
But it does get me wondering "What if..."

If a student were to complete all Levels of an AFF course with unrated Intructors, would the completion still be recognised by the national skydiving authority (USPA/PASA/etc.) when applying for an A-licence?

In the student jumps that most of us (DZ.com members) have done, our log books are signed by our Instructor/JM, who also include their Instructor/JM registration number, right ?

So, anyone taking a look at your logbook, with access to the qualification ratings of Instructors and JMs referenced by their number, would be able to tell soon enough if you were trained by an unrated 'AFF-I'. Could this then have negative effects on the student's progression once the authorities are on the case.. making him/her repeat levels again with rated instructors.. or denying their A-licence application ?

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Because a USPA Coach can do categories G & H. Once they're done with that, "technically" they can jump with anyone (within reason) until they are off student status (completed 25 skydives and completed the A License proficiency card).

Please clarify this for everyone.

I believe that students are now required to be under the supervision of a rated jumper (coach or above) until they have a license.

never pull low......unless you are

[SkydiverRick 0]

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I dont think their is anything in the FAR's about this, and the regulations are "recomendations" so is there anything any one could do about this??


Roy

USPA can pull their group membership.

never pull low......unless you are

[wrightskyguy 1]

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If you have a rating, and wish to use it, Keep it current.

By current, are you referring to currency (i.e. X number of jumps per year) or how recently you paid money to get a new date typed on some piece of paper. If the latter, what does that have to do with safety?

Blues,
Dave

Current means you've met the proficiency requirements set forth by USPA. There is alot more involved in obtaining and keeping current an AFF rating than sending inyour money, although some folks that don't or can't meet those requirements will tell you different.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[livendive 8]

[nightjumps 1]

Holy crap.

I recalled (Which is still on the USPA website),

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"An appropriately-rated USPA Instructor must directly supervise each student jump until the student is cleared to self supervise in freefall during Category E. A USPA Coach or the USPA-approved equivalent may conduct freefall training and supervise jumps for those students in Categories E through H. Until the USPA A license, all student training remains the responsibility of the USPA Instructor.

The actual BSR states;

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a. All student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by a USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor.

b. All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA Coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license.

Thank you, Rick

K.

[voodew1 0]

Also our DZ does not charge for our coaching jumps as the rated coaches jump with the low time jumpers to further their skills after AFF and keep them jumping. We do not have a DZ where the experienced jumpers won't jump with new jumpers we do it for the sport and the fun of teaching--if we sucked every last dollar out of them for coaching jumps they are broke and can no longer jump!
Voodew

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[D22369 0]

USPA can pull their group membership


---> true, but that does little to keep them from doing whatever they wish with unrated instructors...

and that isnt a very good deterrent.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[riggerrob 561]

If they have never attended an AFF Instructor Certification Course. legally they cannot call themselves "AFF Instructors."
Doesn't USPA have some sort of copy write on "AFF?"

[Ron 7]

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What does renewing your driver's license have to do with safety? Get caught driving without one........

The thing is whats gonna happen here? Nothing!

USPA will not do anything, and the FAA does not care. (You don't have to be a member of the USPA, or follow BSR's in the US).

And I know plenty of jumpers that went through the AFF course and didn't really have a clue...They just checked the right blocks.

Does that really make them safer?

I know a guy that had a rating from another country, but not the USPA....Is he unsafe?

While I don't think its a good idea....We already know it happens. USPA knows and once again does nothing about it.
The FAA does not care about it.

So if you are unhappy vote with your feet.

But they are not doing ANYTHING ILLEGAL.

They are just not following the rules of a volluntary orginization. That has show that it has no balls...Whoop de fucking do!

I don't follow the rules of the NRA....I'm not a member.

If you don't like it, don't go there...But there is nothing wrong with it.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Phlip 0]

If I understand correctly:

They basically do whaterver they want AS LONG AS they don't call their program "AFF", their DZ "USPA DZ" and their instructors "AFF Jumpmasters".

Right?

Flip

[SkydiverRick 0]

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If I understand correctly:

They basically do whaterver they want AS LONG AS they don't call their program "AFF", their DZ "USPA DZ" and their instructors "AFF Jumpmasters".

Right?

Flip

There are very few laws that apply to skydivers. You might want to read part 105.

never pull low......unless you are

[sducoach 0]

Derek,

Make sure and let everyone know "who" gave you that response. It was a RD and not a USPA employee was it not?

Give the USPA some teeth boys and girls or do not complain with the "enforcement" you receive.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[TXJumper 0]

This particular DZ does call their program AFF, and their jump master AFF JM's. It's on all their brochures and advertising. They also don't bother to let their students and customers know that they are unrated. That was one of my biggest concerns. After some checking, all of their tandem instructors are rated and are current.

[nightjumps 1]

There is now two ratings for Tandems... The manufacturer's rating and the USPA "Tandem Instructor" rating.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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This particular DZ does call their program AFF, and their jump master AFF JM's. It's on all their brochures and advertising. They also don't bother to let their students and customers know that they are unrated. That was one of my biggest concerns. After some checking, all of their tandem instructors are rated and are current.

I think that it is very rare that dz's use unrated tandem instructors. It may even be illegal. A shortage of AFF jumpmasters causes some dz's to improvise. They shouldn't call their program AFF if they are using instructors that aren't rated.

never pull low......unless you are

[voodew1 0]

It is amazing that you can come up with information about AFF and Tandems why don't you tell us how you know all of this and your real name!!!

Voodew and not afraid to say it

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[TXJumper 0]

Guess someone got a bit worked up over the questions. My name, for those interested, is on my profile. The information was obtained through talking to a couple of regular jumpers from the particular DZ.

[wmw999 2,167]

I think the wondering is that there were some posts slamming a particular packer, possibly at the same DZ (I'm not that familiar with central Texas DZs), by someone with very close to the same userid.

Sometimes gripes make it onto dz.com.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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It may even be illegal.

FAR 105

"(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator. "

The FAA has deemed the USPA Tandem Instructor course "acceptable to the Administrator.". If the Tandem Instructor has a current rating from the manufacturer OR the USPA and a current medical, they are legal. Notice the FAR doesn't say anything about currency requirements or renewal, or membership requirements. If the 'Parachutist in Command" does not have a rating, then it is a violation of the FAR's.

There is no FAA requirement for any certification for AFF Instructors. Nor is there any FAA requirement for student AAD's, RSL's, square reserves, minimum training, etc. I do think that if a student believes that they are paying for 2 rated Instructors, or 1 rated Instructor, they should get 2 rated or 1 rated Instructor.

If you look at what is legal for student training, it should scare you. USPA has much tighter requirements, but has no authority to enforce those requirements and they don't attempt to when there are BSR violations.

Derek

[samanthashows 0]

I am the packer that was slammed by this person last year. Last year when they were on here the user id TXJUMPER was Paula Ramsey, they have since changed it to Daniel Stinson. If this person has a genuine concern they need to talk to the DZO or the S&TA about this.

Samantha Shows

Samantha Weaver

[Ron 7]

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If this person has a genuine
concern they need to talk to the DZO or the S&TA about this.

Why? Its not illegal.

If the USPA does not care that a USPA DZ (I am not sure it is) is not using non USPA rated I's...Then why should anyone else care.

And if its not a USPA DZ...Then the USPA has no power there at all (I would say the USPA has no power anyway, anywhere and I only am a member becasue I have to to jump at some DZ's...I personally think they are worthless).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Phlip 0]

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I would say the USPA has no power anyway, anywhere and I only am a member becasue I have to to jump at some DZ's...I personally think they are worthless.

Having the power or not over DZs is one thing, but you cannot say they are worthless. They set a standard of training and safety and are a political representation for us.

Flip

[Ron 7]

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Having the power or not over DZs is one thing, but you cannot say they are worthless.

Really?!?!? Watch close....They are worthless.

See I can do it.

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They set a standard
of training and safety and are a political representation for us.

I'll grant the political part....As for setting the standard for training....

USPA didn't aprove of Tandems, AFF, BOC for students and a bunch of other stuff...

People did these things with out them, and THEN the USPA said...Hey thats a good idea. USPA fought several of these when they were started.

The ISP is NOT manditory.
The coach ticket started as a good idea, then got watered down like crazy.
They had the BIC which was the biggest joke around...Now its gone because it was so stupid.
NO USPA course or instruction is the same at ANY DZ...No standards anywhere.

I used to think that they were powerful....Then I looked around and delt with them a few times.....They will not do anything if it requires extra work for them...And they fight the good things.

They wanted to disallow the team Synchronicity from representing the US at the world meet....They had to let them because they did follow the rules..USPA would rather have not sent them, and gave them NO support.

USPA sucks...but what else are you going to do?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334