freakydiver 0 #1 August 8, 2003 With the resurgance of the RSL debate, I have a canopy transfer question. On a typical two handle sport rig, what is the quickest way to get rid of the main and dump the reserve, I guess what I mean is, pulling both handles at the same time could result in the quickest transfer, but shouldn't there be a brief pause to let the main clear and then pull reserve, like half a second? Any suggestions? Anyone ever done both handles at the same time, is that dangerous (I would think so)... Thanks! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #2 August 8, 2003 A slight timing error on a "simultaneous" pull can kill you. Definitely pull cutaway first and reserve second, in sequence, not together. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #3 August 8, 2003 Right but how much time to do a really quick one. I would never do a simultaneous pull, but is say half a second enough to clear a main? A quarter of a second? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #4 August 8, 2003 The moment the main is released, it's clear.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #5 August 8, 2003 QuoteI have a canopy transfer question. A CANOPY TRANSFER...Is when you pull the reserve....Wait till it starts to open, THEN cutaway. What you described is a very quick reserve pull, but not a canopy transfer. I have a graduated cutaway to reserve pull response. 1500-2000 feet= Cutaway, rollover, get stable, pull reserve. 1000-1500 feet= Cutaway, rollover, pull reserve. 500-1000 feet= Cutaway, as I feel both risers release, pull reserve while I roll to belly to relative wind. under 500 feet= Pull reserve, then cutaway. (Canopy Transfer) Your results will vary....I have done all but the Sub 500 foot one...And I REALLY don't want to try it. In most cases (Altitude permiting) it is better to not try a canopy transfer. You risk an entanglement. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #6 August 8, 2003 Ahhhhh - thanks very much Ron, I always thought it was just a quick reserve pull. I stand corrected and educated. Thanks much! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #7 August 8, 2003 Quotebut how much time to do a really quick one [monty python] African or European? [/monty python] Seriously, terminal or not? Under canopy, even a bad spinner (no experience there, thankfully) you're not doing 174 ft/sec so 1/2 second difference in chop time will be, perhaps, 50 feet? At terminal you're talking about 70-90 ft. of difference at best and maybe 350 ft. in total from decision to reserve deployment. That sets you up for a streamer at 1500 and a good reserve by just under a grand either way. An RSL is virtually instantaneous ... and you know what kinds of debates THAT has caused on these forums before... sadly sometimes people chop so low that even an RSL doesn't save them. THAT would be the thing to avoid... -Dave (1 chop) Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #8 August 8, 2003 QuoteAny suggestions? Anyone ever done both handles at the same time, is that dangerous (I would think so)... I've done it twice (both on video) with no ill effects. The effect of gravity (ie. falling clear of the main) was much faster than the reserve pilot chute deployment. Absolutely no chance of one fouling the other. If there were, RSLs (which I don't have because I do CRW) would cause a lot of main/reserve entanglements. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 August 8, 2003 A Canopy transfer save for ya. Quote1/20/1996 Keystone, FL Description: Two jumpers were under canopy. One was jumping a banner. The other was filming. The cameraman in maneuvering contacted the banner, and a "wrap" followed. They were heard to be discussing the situation. At an alt. of aprox 600 feet the cameraman told the other jumper to "cutaway".The jumper deployed his reserve and when it reached line-stretch proceeded to cutaway. He got an open reserve at aprox 10 to 20 feet. The cameraman was still with the "mess" which reportedly equaled less than half a canopy and was spinning. The cameraman cutaway at aprox. 100-150 feet and impacted the ground shortly afterward. This guy just barely made it...But it shows how a transfer when really low could save ya."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth21441 0 #10 August 8, 2003 I feel that the jumper should pull the cut away pillow first then go for the reserve next... As it would be ideal to at least give it a two second... intervial... Just so you are not too close to that garbage in the air,,,, I have this from exp. here,.... Also alot of times the RSL will pull the pin for you but dont always count on that........so pull,,,, then pull the reserve.... it makes sense if you have the altiude to deal with... if not then watch out durning your decent... thank you, Ken...Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #11 August 8, 2003 > As it would be ideal to at least give it a two second... intervial... Just so >you are not too close to that garbage in the air,,,, I dunno about that. I've seen an awful lot of cutaways during rig testing, and I never saw any reserve PC even come close to the main as long as there was any delay at all (i.e. even a split second, or what an RSL gives you.) And if the reserve PC does by some fluke get entangled with the main? Your reserve simply opens faster. That's how the skyhook works. I would never advise anyone to take a delay after cutting away "so their reserve won't entangle." Those seconds could make the difference between a reserve opening at 50 feet and a reserve that doesn't open in time. Some people choose to try to get belly to earth before opening their reserve , but that's a different issue. Horseshoe mals are also another issue; in those cutting away may not release the main so there are different concerns there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #12 August 9, 2003 Quotebut shouldn't there be a brief pause to let the main clear and then pull reserve, like half a second? I always tell my students that I don't care how fast they pull as long as they pull the cutaway first. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #13 August 9, 2003 I have three canopy transfers as a result of an AAD firing high (military version of the old Sentinel). On all three occasions my main was fully open and working properly. I left the brakes stowed on both canopies, made sure my main and reserve were clear of one another, and that my reserve was fully inflated, then cut the main away. I teach students a decision altitude, cutaway altitude, and do-not-cutaway-below altitude. I understand that this varies slightly from DZ to DZ, so I will leave the numbers out of this post so as not to confuse anyone. I teach students to pull the cutaway handle to full arm's extension and discard it, then pull the reserve ripcord to full arm's extension and discard it, then check canopy. In my opinion this procedure builds enough delay in the process for the main to be completely clear of the deploying reserve. I agree with Bill that intentionally building a delay into one's procedures is a bad idea. I also agree with JW that a simultaneous pull invites an out-of-sequence deployment/main-reserve entanglement scenario.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #14 August 9, 2003 QuoteI also agree with JW that a simultaneous pull invites an out-of-sequence deployment/main-reserve entanglement scenario. So why don't we see lot's of these scenarios being played out with RSLs, Skyhooks (admittedly a new device), or SOSs? Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #15 August 9, 2003 I think he's talking about the person trying to be simultaneous -- it's a lot harder for a person to get the timing just right than a lanyard. A little bit of overamping on the left hand and you have an out-of-sequence deployment. Well, at least that's how I read it. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #16 August 9, 2003 QuoteSo why don't we see lot's of these scenarios being played out with RSLs, Skyhooks (admittedly a new device), or SOSs? Once the main risers have left the three rings, the main canopy is clear. Two forces are working in opposite directions to encourage clean air for the reserve to deploy - the drag from the cutaway canopy and the gravity pulling the jumper at a faster rate toward the ground. All three of the systems you mentioned build in a momentary delay (literally a split-second) to allow for a clean reserve pilot chute launch. The RSL deploys the main only after the riser it is attached to has cleared the 3-ring. Result = clean reserve pilot chute launch. The skyhook (from what I have read - I have not seen one) basically uses the cutaway main to deploy the reserve, but only works once the main risers have cleared the 3-rings. Result = clean reserve pilot chute launch. On an SOS, with both the cutaway cables and reserve ripcord attached to one handle, uses a much longer reserve ripcord. When the metal handle has pulled the cutaway cables enough to release the risers from the 3-rings, the handle reached the swedge at the end of the reserve ripcord cable, deploying the reserve pilot chute. Result = clean reserve pilot chute launch.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeTJumps 4 #17 August 9, 2003 When your right hand goes to full extension with the cutaway handle in it, the left hand should follow with the reserve handle in it. That will be ample time unless there is a failure of one of the 3-ring mechanisms. Also remember that altitude AGL can allow you a time delay if you need it for stability but putting your feet on your but may help you slide down away from the main during the cutaway.Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
