aa1b 0 #1 August 22, 2001 I know this sounds like a dumb question but are student rigsas "safe" as the other rigs worn by the more experienced jumpers?I do know they have a lower wing loading.Do they open as consistent as the gear worn by the experienced jumpers?Thanks for your reply. (2 jumps)"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure.Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing."Helen Keller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #2 August 23, 2001 It depends on the gear and the DZ, period.At my DZ, the student gear is just as safe, if not more safe than some of the rigs I have seen other people jump. I have only heard of two malfunctions that were real (not the student cutting away because the slider was too loud or they freaked out) and those were about three years ago. My DZ averages a couple of thousand students a year.All of our student rigs have new mains (PISA Skymasters), CYPRES, huge reserves, and BOC & rip-cord deployment option. The mains are all packed to the DZO's specs no matter who is packing the rig or it gets re-done. There is a method to his madness and it is a damn safe one. But, they're only safe for RW, not for freeflying as they have velcro-risers and a small bit (1.5") of exposed bridle between the BOC pocket and the flap of the container.Just my $0.02,KrisIAD/JM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #3 August 23, 2001 "But, they're only safe for RW, not for freeflying as they have velcro-risers and a small bit (1.5") of exposed bridle between the BOC pocket and the flap of the container."Oh man....I'm gonna die! LMAO"Don't give a F$#ck if I'm comin or leavin"-Pappa RoachClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #4 August 23, 2001 As far as I know, the rigs at our DZ are safe. They look old and tattered (which Sweethogs don't?), but they still do the trick, open every time, and stay on my back. That is all I can ask.However, I wish that our DZ had some rental gear that wasn't like this. As far as I know, the rental gear is just the student gear. So, those coming in, make sure you have your own rig cuz these are UNCOMFORTABLE!! --------------Drop on in...leave a message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #5 August 23, 2001 Quote At my DZ, the student gear is just as safe, if not more safe than some of the rigs I have seen other people jump. I have only heard of two malfunctions that were real (not the student cutting away because the slider was too loud or they freaked out) and those were about three years ago. My DZ averages a couple of thousand students a year. I know of two that happened back in '96.. One was a line over, one was a slider hang up at the canopy(large tension knot in one line group).. The slider hang up was me.. IAD level 3.. The line over was an IAD level 1.. They were about a week apart.. 'Ole Mikey went ballistic after my mal.. "That's the second goddam student cutaway this month!@#".. I bet somebody paid hell.. When I went through IAD there it was (I think) Manta's and ROL deployment.. I have no idea what containers were used, or which AAD..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #6 August 23, 2001 Do you have to pay for reserve repacks and freebags when you cutaway as a student?? If so, when does that start as far as jump #??--------------Drop on in...leave a message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #7 August 23, 2001 Quote Do you have to pay for reserve repacks and freebags when you cutaway as a student?? If so, when does that start as far as jump #?? As a student, it's all on the DZ.. If you are licensed(or off student status) and renting gear, it may be different.. It will depend on the DZ and the circumstances.. If you cutaway because YOU screwed up a packjob on a rental rig, and lose the main/freebag, they may try to make you pay for it.. As a student, no decent DZ would even consider trying to make somebody pay for anything like that.. If you are a student, the rig was most likely packed by one of the DZ's packers.. If they packed the mal(and it's a packer induced mal), they can't make you pay for it.. Any other situation, who knows.. Better ask each DZ their policy on this if you are renting gear..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #8 August 23, 2001 Thanks for the info Aviatrr. I kinda thought that is how it went. Just wanted to see if it was like that other places. I surely hope that I dont have to find out, though!!! --------------Drop on in...leave a message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #9 August 24, 2001 I know at our DZ if you rent gear and they pack it and you cutaway , you dont pay for anything. As a matter of fact when I was going through my AFP training my JM joked with me and said "hey if you drop your rip cord and dont want to pay the 5.00$ for the lost RC, just cutaway and throw all your handles and you wont have to pay for anything." jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #10 August 24, 2001 Haha....obviously he isn't the one who pays for the stuff. That would be sort of counter-productive. Oh well.--------------Drop on in...leave a message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fred 0 #11 August 24, 2001 I was wondering the same thing. I'm reading a lot of posts that suggest that manta's (the student rigs at my dz) are pretty harsh on openings (frankly, I hope this is true. My thighs hurt after today's jumps). During my first jump course, the coach pointed to one of the canopies and said, "That's our last 2-color canopy. It will be retired after this year." And I immidiately thought, "Please, don't let me get that canopy." I asked him about it later, and he said that they replace their canopies a lot earlier than most dropzones, and they resell their canopies to [another dropzone in michigan], who use them for a lot longer. He said that only one of the student/rental rigs has ever been patched. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #12 August 24, 2001 My worst openings have been on student canopies. We have Javelins with Sabres (Cypres & PD Reserve) and I learned all about the "Sabre Slammer" during my student progression. A rite of passage I suppose. Still, pretty nice rigs for student gear.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #13 August 24, 2001 Quote I know of two that happened back in '96.. One was a line over, one was a slider hang up at the canopy(large tension knot in one line group).. The slider hang up was me.. IAD level 3.. The line over was an IAD level 1.. They were about a week apart.. 'Ole Mikey went ballistic after my mal.. "That's the second goddam student cutaway this month!@#".. I bet somebody paid hell.. I bet they did pay hell! Mike is absolutely anal about how the student rigs are packed, not that it's a bad thing. The only student rig cutaway's I've heard of were Josh Mathis's line-over and Scott Bunch's bag-lock that happened before I was a student there in Sept 98. There have been two cutaways in the last twelve months but one was from a student who didn't like how loud his slider was (we asked him how he liked the slider on the reserve) and the other was from a student that appeared to have pulled his cutaway handle instead of his PC or he pulled it *right* after he pulled the PC.Quote When I went through IAD there it was (I think) Manta's and ROL deployment.. I have no idea what containers were used, or which AAD.. I had no idea you trained at my home DZ... Small world. It was Manta's and ROL with FXC AAD's. We changed to BOC & CYPRES last year and in the last two months we ditched the Manta's and Raiders and put in new PISA Skymasters. We still keep student rigs with a Goliath, modified Vector Tandem 360 and a Falcon 300 for the big-boys. The rigs are still the yellow & black Prestige's made by Adventure Loft in Texas and Mike just changed out the velcro on 80% of them. That's one of the many things I really like about how my DZ is run. Mike puts money back into the business, he replaces things before they get worn out, he's a maintenance nut when it comes to the airplane, and we always try to err on the side of safety.KrisZillaProud to be a JM at OSC... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #14 August 24, 2001 Student gear is usually proven designs that are more reliable than gear used by experienced jumpers. Any new design feature needs a few years experience with licensed jumpers before they incorporate that feature into student gear. For example, BOCS came into fashion around 1990 but were not incorporated into student gear until 1996.Student gear is usually more reliable than the students. For example: last year at Pitt Meadows we had four reserves opened on our student gear. One student experienced a line-over type malfunction on her main and pulled her own reserve ripcord.Two student reserves were pulled by PFF Instructors because they were rapidly approaching the hard deck and the students couldn't be bothered with pulling! The third student reserve was opened by an FXC. The A Licensed jumper noticed that the FXC was set to fire too high, but he jumped it anyway!Sounds to me like 75% user error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikefarmer 0 #15 August 24, 2001 Quote "But, they're only safe for RW, not for freeflying as they have velcro-risers and a small bit (1.5") of exposed bridle between the BOC pocket and the flap of the container."Oh man....I'm gonna die! LMAOClay, I only hope you don't ever feel that "whump" feeling a d-bag makee when it floats off of your back while you're 220+ MPH and having the time of you're life. The only thing that saved MY neck from getting some hella punishment was the bag lock that the horseshoe had caused while I was clearing my PC. Anyway, even though you snicker at my homie's safety concerns, I hope you don't have to deal with it...MikeMike's Sky World Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #16 August 24, 2001 "even though you snicker at my homie's safety concerns"I dont "snicker" at those concerns in any way. Trust me. I free fly on almost every jump. I also have an "old" Dolphin container that isn't "free fly friendly" The bridal rigging is a concern on every jump for me. I make for damn sure it is stowed properly. I have a certain technique that has worked very well....so far. I have never had a premature ejacu....I mean deployment and I sincerely dont want to find out what it is like. I dont condone Free Flying with rigs like mine to newbies. It's just a risk I take until I spend the $300 to get the mods done. Wish me luck!"Don't give a F$#ck if I'm comin or leavin"-Pappa RoachClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikefarmer 0 #17 August 25, 2001 Good luck!"It's better to be dead and cool than alive and uncool."-Marlboro Man Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #18 August 25, 2001 Quote I had no idea you trained at my home DZ... Small world. It definitely is.. Yea, I jumped there back in '96 while.. I went to school from '94 to '96 in Tulsa, and Cushing was really the only DZ within an hour.. There were a couple others - but they were not places I wanted to jump.. Hell, I even busted my leg out there at OSC.. Made a low front riser turn(which Mikey always bitched about), canopy started to plane out, and I brought the toggles down to around my shoulder.. One of the toggles came off in my hand - the steering line broke about 18in. above the toggle.. Grabbed the rear risers, too little, too late.. Reached for the ground with my left leg straight out.......WHACK! Got up, dusted myself off, gathered my canopy, started walking in....and fell over when I put weight on my left leg.. WTF?! I babied it on the way into the hangar.. I didn't think it was broken.. I drove home, packed it in ice, drank lots of beer, and went to bed.. Woke up the next morning, and it hurt like hell still...and looked even worse.. Went to the Urgent Care.. Turned out I broke my ankle and fractured my tibia.. That was the end of my skydiving for a few years....then I moved in next to a DZ.. I just HAD to start jumping again to fit in with the neighbors! Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbbilly14 0 #19 August 25, 2001 QuoteDo they open as consistent as the gear worn by the experienced jumpers?I got my gear this year, and promptly had it re-packed. I jumped the 120 days, and had it re-packed again, never having a problem. On the day I brought it to be re-packed again, I decided to jump on rented, student gear, as it is a 1 1/2 hour trip to the DZ. I always open high, as I want plenty of time to deal with the probable mal. I opened at 4 grand, to 8 or 9 line twists. I have only had line twists once before, as a student, and I was prepared. So what came out of my mouth was, "Goddamnit!" instead of "Oh Fuck!" So I looked at my alti, and I was still at 3500, so I started kicking out of it. I got out by 2300, and took a deep breath. I was ok, and still landing at the DZ.I guess my $.02 is that you don't know who is packing the DZ's stuff, or if they are having a bad day. I don't think you should mistrust the gear, but treat it with more respect. I have NEVER had line twists on my own pack-jobs, but that could be a fluke in and of itself. I have only 20 or so.So, I would say that student gear is as apt to go bad as a fun jumper's gear, and vice versa. Just treat it as though it is going to save your life. It will, if you let it."Son, you've got a panty on yer head!"Billy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #20 August 27, 2001 Quote It definitely is.. Yea, I jumped there back in '96 while.. I went to school from '94 to '96 in Tulsa, and Cushing was really the only DZ within an hour.. There were a couple others - but they were not places I wanted to jump.. Yup. I did my first jump at Paradise, decided I wanted to continue but thought I'd check my options. I walked into OSC and knew I had found the right place. Quote Hell, I even busted my leg out there at OSC.. Made a low front riser turn(which Mikey always bitched about), canopy started to plane out, and I brought the toggles down to around my shoulder.. One of the toggles came off in my hand - the steering line broke about 18in. above the toggle.. Grabbed the rear risers, too little, too late.. Reached for the ground with my left leg straight out.......WHACK! Got up, dusted myself off, gathered my canopy, started walking in....and fell over when I put weight on my left leg.. WTF?! I babied it on the way into the hangar.. I didn't think it was broken.. I drove home, packed it in ice, drank lots of beer, and went to bed.. Woke up the next morning, and it hurt like hell still...and looked even worse.. Went to the Urgent Care.. Turned out I broke my ankle and fractured my tibia.. YEOUCH! That had to have left a mark! Glad to hear that it wasn't a lot worse and that you got back into skydiving. Mikey doesn't bitch too much about low turns for swoops anymore but there are a couple of jumpers that we worry about and he lets them know it. Did you ever meet Greg Gerondale? Now that guy can surf a canopy. He was doing an AFF load and the student's mother was in the golf cart with Mike while he was talking down the student. He hooks it right behind the golf-cart and screams past her side of the golf cart at over 50mph less than three feet from her. He scared the AFF student's mom so bad she lost control of her bladder. Heh, that's Greg for ya' Kris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VivaHeadDown 0 #21 August 27, 2001 It's a good thing safety and comfort aren't the same thing when it comes to student rigs, or else there be a lot fewer students. I can still remember the bruises in places I didn't even know the rig could touch, not to mention the obvious ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #22 August 27, 2001 Half the complaints about student harnesses are the result of poorly adjusted harnesses.These complaints have three possible causes.First, manufacturers are challenged to build one harness that can be adjusted to fit all sizes and shapes of students. Even with millions of man-years experience, the US Army has not mastered this skill!Secondly, DZ staff may not understand the subtlties of adjusting harnesses.Finally, few students understand how a properly fitted harness feels, so they just jump whatever thay are given. For example, tandem students frequently complain about leg straps being too tight under canopy, but they cannot comprehend that all their weight is now resting on those leg straps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #23 August 27, 2001 "the US Army has not mastered this skill!"Thats an understatement! Also I find that the more I jump the more comfortable I feel in the harness. If I take a couple weeks off I am sore. Especially the inside of my thighs! I think your body takes regular jumping to be used to the stresses. Just like any other exercise. "Don't give a F$#ck if I'm comin or leavin"-Pappa RoachClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinmedic 0 #24 September 7, 2003 I dont think this is the right post, but since its about student rigs i will ask the question. Does someone not licensed, but finished with AFF training need to be jumping a rig that is not equipped with an AAD? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeerJump 0 #25 September 7, 2003 You are fresh off student status and have 10 jumps - I would suggest that you jump ONLY rigs that HAVE an AAD! I would also add that a RSL is a good idea too at your exp level. Just my $.01, I could be wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
