Re: [Nullified] CYPRES Save!

[Ron 7]

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I agree that people who say, "...It's ok, I've got a Cypres..." are dangers to themselves and others and
have no business skydiving. I don't think that lumping people who won't jump without a Cypres in to the
same catagory as those people, though, is at all appropriate.

And no offense but this is a view from someone of the "CYPRES Gereration" Which I am not.

To not be willing to jump without a CYPRES is a sign of DEPENDENCE.

If you told me I had to jump without a reserve I still would jump, and in fact still have jumped.

I don't use an RSL and I have 650ish jumps without an AAD starting with jump number 13.

If my ADD will not turn on, or is sent off for its 4 year, I still jump. And I don't change the way I skydive with or without it.

That is proof of the fact I don't depend on it. 3 of my 6 mals were without an AAD. If fact I had it, but forgot to turn it on. (I started to joke that it was a hint from above that I should turn the damn thing on...But I have had 3 with it on, so I guess it means I just pack like shit.)

I have seen people ride planes down since they forgot to turn their CYPRES on.

One day I ran to the plane with my rig in my hand...On the climb I started to put my rig on. A guy FREAKED out that my CYPRES was off, and started trying to arm it for me....At which point I told him to leave it alone.

Him: "Hey man your CYPRES is off"
ME: "Oh well"
Him: "Here I'll get it for you"
ME: "Don't touch it!"
HIM: "Why, are you stupid? Jumping without it on!"
ME: "What altitude are we at?"
HIM: "3,000"
ME: "Well, you would have set it to fire at 3,750 feet, not a very good idea huh?"
HIM: "Well, you should ride the plane down!"
ME: "Why?"
HIM: "What are you stupid? Your CYPRES is not armed!"
ME: "So what?"

This guy had a 1,000 jumps, and thought I had a death wish.

I know people who have ridden planes down becasue they forgot....I know people that will not jump if the CYPRES is sent for repair.

These people are depending on them. Thats messed up.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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I know people who have ridden planes down becasue they forgot....I know people that will not jump if the CYPRES is sent for repair.

These people are depending on them. Thats messed up.

No, that's their personal choice. But really, you shouldn't tell people to not get on heavy wingloadings because that's messed up! They shouldn't be wingload dependant! They should understand the consequences of turning low and shouldn't be hindered in their freedom. Because we know that depending on a light wingloading is only being gear dependent.

Get real Ron. And get your arguements in order. Are you for more safety in this sport?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[skysquiffy 0]

[One day I ran to the plane with my rig in my hand...On the climb I started to put my rig on.]

Why?

Apparently you were still messing with it at 3,000 AGL too. What if there had been an emergency exit required? Why would you board a jump plane without being ready to jump?

[diverdriver 5]

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[One day I ran to the plane with my rig in my hand...On the climb I started to put my rig on.]

Why?

Apparently you were still messing with it at 3,000 AGL too. What if there had been an emergency exit required? Why would you board a jump plane without being ready to jump?

If I had been that pilot I would never have taken off if he didn't have the rig completely on.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[chaoskitty 0]

It seems you all have moved away from discussing this incident.
The title of this thread is "CYPRES Save!" and NOT "fatality at TN Skydive Center" BECAUSE Caryn had a cypres. So if there is anything to be learned from this incident, it is that a cypres can save your life in such a case. It certainly increases your odds in most other cases.
Unless anyone has more information on the facts of this incident, I'm through reading this thread, so if you want to bitch at me, you'll have to PM me.

[Ron 7]

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Get real Ron. And get your arguements in order. Are you for more safety in this sport?

Yes I am and saftey is not just new toys and relying on them, but better training and being prepared.

Who is best fro this situation:

Both Instrument flying conditions:

You in a C172 with the bare min IFR instruments
Me in a decked out Bonanza but I only have 100 hrs and no IFR rating?

I have all the cool toys, but thats not enough.
Id rather ride with you.

The cool toys can make you safer, but if thats all you have and you let it take the place of your brain...Thats not good.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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The cool toys can make you safer, but if thats all you have and you let it take the place of your brain...Thats not good.

Ron

I agree with that but I'll tell you that I can do a heck of a lot better job IFR flying with my full glass cockpit now. I have more situational awareness. Yes, there are more buttons to push and make sure everything is set up. Yes, a pilot can get into trouble if they use it incorrectly but it doesn't make them device dependant. I take my handheld GPS with all the time. Am I device dependant? No, it's an added tool. But I always want to fly with it. So your arguement is that I'm dependant. I say I'm not. I feel that I have more information with it.

With the Cypres, you turn it on and forget it. You plan your dives and deployments so that you don't scare it. If you find someone that makes a dependant statement then you council them. But to say people who choose to always jump with a Cypres are somehow dangerous just doesn't wash with me. And yah, I've made my share of jumps with no RSL and no AAD. Hell my firt rig was a Wonderhog with Cruiselite and Safety Flyer. But having people with Cypreses is a good thing and if they choose to have one for every jump like I choose to have my handheld GPS for ever flight then that's not dependency. That's just a choice.

I chose to go back to an RSL when the Skyhook came out. It addressed the concerns I had for cutting away in a spinning mal. I've already had two reserve rides without an RSL. I know I can do it. But, I like the way the Skyhook works and choose to have it on my rig. Am I device dependent? I don't think I am. Others probably will. But it's still my choice.

Here on these forums people talk about riding the plane down for not jumping through clouds. They recieve praise on knowing their limits and making that personal choice for themselves. Why in the hell are people choosing to only jump with a cypres being put down as dependent on a machine? This just does not fit with the attitudes expressed elsewhere on this site.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Billy 0]

Wow,
Thats some scary shit! Glad ya had a helmet and a Cypress,,

Natural Born FlyerZ.com

[Ron 7]

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I agree with that but I'll tell you that I can do a heck of a lot better job IFR flying with my full glass cockpit
now. I have more situational awareness. Yes, there are more buttons to push and make sure everything is
set up. Yes, a pilot can get into trouble if they use it incorrectly but it doesn't make them device
dependant. I take my handheld GPS with all the time. Am I device dependant? No, it's an added tool. But I
always want to fly with it. So your arguement is that I'm dependant. I say I'm not. I feel that I have more
information with it.

If your GPS is dead, would you go fly a Piper Cub on a nice day without it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AriWeil 0]

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Are you for more safety in this sport?

How can you posit that you're "all for safety," yet state that you've boarded the plane while still gearing up, admit to not paying attention to whether your AAD is activated while packing - in fact saying "...I pack like shit" - then make the statement, "...if you KNEW you didn't have one (AAD), don't you think you would be a little more careful?" Whether an indivdual chooses to jump a rig equipped with an AAD, RSL or any other safety device should have no bearing on his or her attitude toward safety while the skydive is underway - be it in the plane, in freefall, or under canopy. Every skydiver has a reponsibility for his or her own safety as well as that of the individuals around them. The question of jumping an AAD is not one of proper procedure, but of personal preference. If it makes an individual more comfortable to have that safety device, and it leads to he or she staying more focused on the tasks at hand, all the better.

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[Ron 7]

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How can you posit that you're "all for safety," yet state that you've boarded the plane while still
gearing up,

Once in 3,000 jumps, and like I said there was no danger I was seatbelted in just like the pilot and planned on staying that way if anything happend. I got 3 gear checks once I had my gear on.

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admit to not paying attention to whether your AAD is activated while packing

Thats because I did 650ish jumps without one and was taught never to rely on it. I don't need an AAD to jump, unlike some people..Now I wear one, and like it, but I don't need it to jump.

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in fact
saying "...I pack like shit"

Yeah in 3,000 jumps I have had 6 mals, I only packed 5 of those. One was a tension knot that could have been packing or just "shit happens" 1/600 or 1/750 jumps. Still high but most of my jumps are on highly loaded Stilettos.

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...if you KNEW you didn't have one (AAD), don't
you think you would be a little more careful?" Whether an indivdual chooses to jump a rig equipped with
an AAD, RSL or any other safety device should have no bearing on his or her attitude toward safety
while the skydive is underway - be it in the plane, in freefall, or under canopy. Every skydiver has a
reponsibility for his or her own safety as well as that of the individuals around them.

Yep, but people do more stupid things and let themselves fall into a false sense of security since they have one.

"It's OK, I have a CYPRES" I hear all to often.

And the lady with two CYPRES saves thinks she is safe since she lost altitude awareness TWICE, but since she has an AAD she is a safe jumper?

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If it makes an individual
more comfortable to have that safety device, and it leads to he or she staying more focused on the
tasks at hand, all the better.

The only task at hand is not dying everthing else is bonus.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Scrumpot 1]

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Get real Ron. And get your arguements in order. Are you for more safety in this sport?

Make the sport entirely 100% safe, guaranteed, and "antiseptic" ...and a lot of us would simply go away, and not even bother doing it anymore IMHO.

Not a deathwish, more a life / challenge wish.

Obviously, there is no way we can 100% ever (that I can conceive) acomplish this. I do not see Ron's points regarding AAD DEPENDENCY as either irrational, or contradictory to (or in conflict with) advocating increased safety at all. From where do you correlate that aspersion, Chris?

edited to correct spelling only...
(I stand by my content )

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[kallend 1,646]

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Get real Ron. And get your arguements in order. Are you for more safety in this sport?

Yes I am and saftey is not just new toys and relying on them, but better training and being prepared.

Who is best fro this situation:

Both Instrument flying conditions:

You in a C172 with the bare min IFR instruments
Me in a decked out Bonanza but I only have 100 hrs and no IFR rating?

I have all the cool toys, but thats not enough.
Id rather ride with you.

The cool toys can make you safer, but if thats all you have and you let it take the place of your brain...Thats not good.

Ron

Ever fly in hard IMC in a single engined plane? I have. Pretty dependent on that one engine/prop to keep your ass in one piece up there, regardless of how good a pilot you are.

THAT is device dependency, and people do it every day.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Ever fly in hard IMC in a single engined plane? I have. Pretty dependent on that one engine/prop to keep
your ass in one piece up there, regardless of how good a pilot you are.

THAT is device dependency, and people do it every day

This is like saying you are dependent on your main....Duh!
Not the same thing as depending on a passive device to save you if you screw up. Kinda like if you would not fly any plane other than the Cirrus SR20 with the ballistic chute system. Is it safer? Maybe, but its also not needed unless you really screw the pooch. Not flying any AC without a BRS would be a sign of dependence. Just like not willing to jump without an AAD.

However, I do know people that will not plan a flight in IMC on a single engine. I respect them. Using their heads to avoid a situaton that leaves very little room for error.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,646]

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Ever fly in hard IMC in a single engined plane? I have. Pretty dependent on that one engine/prop to keep
your ass in one piece up there, regardless of how good a pilot you are.

THAT is device dependency, and people do it every day

This is like saying you are dependent on your main....Duh!
Not the same thing as depending on a passive device to save you if you screw up. .

More like saying you're dependent on your rig. If my main fails I have a high probablity of getting a good reserve. If the engine in my Mooney fails in IMC with ceilings at 200', I have no back up.

What is your point about passive devices anyway? What's passive got to do with anything?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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What is your point about passive devices anyway? What's passive got to do with anything?

Do you consider a CYPRES passive or active?

I treat it like its passive and I can use it or not.

I know several people that threat it like its active...Like they need it, and that they will not jump without it. As if it is required piece of equipment.

All I have ever said is they should relook at the sport if they feel this way.

As someone else pointed out...You can have all the cool toys and do everything right and still die.

Having an AAD does not mean you are safe, and having one fire shows how you are lacking in some survival skill.

Is this that hard to understand? I like them. I have one. But I don't need it, and if Ihave one fire I will look at my fuckup very closely....Some treat an AAD fire as nothing..."Thats what it is there for right?"

Whatever....Some understand what I am saying...and others don't. I do find it funny that most of the ones that don't have always lived in a CYPRES equiped world.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nullified 0]

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I agree that people who say, "...It's ok, I've got a Cypres..." are dangers to themselves and others and
have no business skydiving. I don't think that lumping people who won't jump without a Cypres in to the
same catagory as those people, though, is at all appropriate.

And no offense but this is a view from someone of the "CYPRES Gereration" Which I am not.

To not be willing to jump without a CYPRES is a sign of DEPENDENCE.

If you told me I had to jump without a reserve I still would jump, and in fact still have jumped.

---Ron, I know that there are people out here who do depend on an AAD in the way that you're describing, and I also agree with your feelings towards those people. But, I feel very strongly that not everyone who won't jump without an AAD falls in to the same category as the people who will say things like, "...It's O.K., I've got a Cypres..."

I know people who won't even do a low alti hop 'n pop without an altimeter. I personally think that's ridiculous, but if it makes them comfortable...and I'm talking comfort, not complacency...then they're free to focus more on what they're doing than worry about what might happen, and I think that makes them safer to themselves and others around them.

I absolutely under no circumstances will jump with an RSL. I rarely do anything but CRW, but even before I was doing CRW, and now when I occassionally break out the Sabre2, I would not / will not jump an RSL. I'm not bashing RSLs, but I'm personally more comfortable without one, and that comfort keeps my mind clear to do what I need to do without hesitation due to a fear which may or may not be irrational. Wrong or right, I trust myself to get my reserve out in time more than I trust an RSL to not fuck it up, depending on they type of mal. People can throw all sorts of statistics at me, but THE bottom line is, the more comfortable I am in a bad situation, the better I'll be able to deal with it and no device can replace that.

Anyway, my point is, if you're not comfortable jumping, for any reason, you shouldn't. Refusing to jump without a certain level of added protection, whatever that level or its means, is not something that anyone should be criticized for. At least one life is on the line everytime someone exits the plane, and there are just so many things tha can happen. If someone won't exit the plane without an armed Cypres, well, look at it this way; there's one less person who may end up hurt, and one less body in the air who may end up hurting someone else on that load.

So again, I recognize that there are those, "...It's ok, I've got a Cypres..." sayers out there. Please, recognize that not everybody who won't jump without an AAD is one of them.

As for jumping without a reserve, I'd only do that if it were a choice between that or jumping WITH an RSL
Stay healthy,
--Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

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[Squeak 17]

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[replyI know people who have ridden planes down becasue they forgot....I know people that will not jump if the CYPRES is sent for repair.

These people are depending on them. Thats messed up.

Ron

You're not allowed to jump without a working AAD here in OZ (under D licebse) so if you board a plane here with a C or below and have not armed yoiur AAD your'e suppossed to ride the plane down.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>You're not allowed to jump without a working AAD here in OZ

That's not really the point here. Riding the plane down because the regs tell you to is different from riding it down because you're too scared of jumping without an AAD.

Anyway it's a fucked up rule. People off student status should be able to make their own decision whether or not to use an AAD. What's the requirement for a D-licence? Some amount of accuracy landings. Fine. So because I can land my canopy on a handkerchief most of the time, I can deal with unconciousness and loss of altitude awareness better? WTF?