Pin checks in the plane

[The111 1]

Thanks for mandating my choices and asking me to grow up. If you're even interested in my reasoning anymore (I only have 50 jumps!) teams always exit 3000 ft before me, and usually it's just me and a few other low time fun solo jumpers exiting at the end of the load, on the days I jump. Quite a bit of movement occurs AFTER the teams leave the plane, which makes it pointless to ask them for a check. I'm aware of all the risks associated with the sport, and I'm aware of all the time I haven't been in it. But I'm also aware of my right to make choices, in life and skydiving, and I've studied my gear on the ground and I've made my choices. I'm aware of the trend of skydivers to expect respect in exchange for experience, but I'm aware of my own personal trend to dislike getting attacked for no reason. I'll let you know when I stop jumping in DeLand so you can start again.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 1]

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The other thing is, and that is something you don't see a lot, that you take care of your flaps, handles etc while moving in the plane. Personally, i always put my hand over the BOC/Hackey when turning around, so that it's protected against snagging somewhere as well as i can feel it if i touch something. The other hand covers the cutaway and release handles if not otherwise needed.

Exactly...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[jlmiracle 7]

The111, do you have a collapisable pilot chute? If so, how do you "feel" that its okay? How do you know for sure 100% that it is cocked.

I'm being tough on you because I don't want to see you (not even knowing you) or anyone else to make a mistake and get hurt, die, hurt someone else or kill someone else.

Since you have made this all okay in the mirror, I bet I could still mess you up. (on the ground of course). If I ever decide to test the weather in FL again, maybe I'll make it down to deland and if you can prove me wrong I will buy you a case of beer (if you drink).

this bet only applies to The111.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[The111 1]

Heh, I am aware that the arguments against me aren't intended to be attacks, but life-savers. Thank you. :)

And maybe I'll take you up on your bet one day. You might even win. You might even change my mind. I don't blindly believe that experience equals knowledge (though I do respect those with high jump #'s for their time in the sport), but if someone, less or more experienced than me, can physically show me (or explain) a loophole in something that I've spent a LOT of time thinking through, then I'm open to that.

I've been packing my rig since my first solo jump, and I cock my pilot chute when I do that. Could I forget? Yes. There's a lot of room for mistakes in skydiving, and I realize that the point of a pin check is an extra failsafe to prevent one of those mistakes (such as me forgetting to cock my PC), but I've thought through the options and my preferred decision path is packing my own rig, and being very aware of it on the plane. If there's a small doubt, I will ask for a pin check. But in general I'm a self reliant person and this is no exception.

And I'm not saying that you couldn't produce a situation to stump me (you probably can!), but if it is something like a knot in my bridle or a weird wrapping around the closing pin... you would have to ALSO prove to me that it could be accomplished with the main flap never opening.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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would like to test that theory (on the gound, of course) at sometime with any willing takers.

OK. How exactly would you like to test my ability to check my pins myself?

My policy of not getting a pin check is based on several factors:

1) I pack for myself and I'm not in the habit of mis-routing my bridle or forgetting to cock my PC. The same can't be said for jumpers or teams that use packers.

2) I can reach back and feel both my main and reserve flaps and pins and ensure they are where they are supposed to be.

3) I am extremely careful with my rig in the aircraft. This means both my movements and others movements that could affect my rig.

4) I have never seen a problem with a rig that couldn't have been prevented by either a) packing the rig themselves, b) doing a gear check prior to and after donning the rig, c) being careful with movements in the aircraft and aware of others movements that may affect their rig.

5) I have seen people give a pin check and make the gear worse (broken seals, incorrectly closed flaps, loosen pins, bend flaps, etc). I don't trust others to correctly check my gear.

5) I jump modern, well maintained gear.

If someone wants a pin check, fine. I won't put them down for their decision. I am careful with their gear, noting how they have stowed their flaps and put them back the same way. If I see something, I tell the person what I see, and if they ask me to fix it, I do and tell them exactly what I am doing to fix it. If possible, I don't open their flaps, instead, I peek in through the side.

Derek

[Chrisky 0]

Forgot to name the reason for why i do this all the time. Before the licensing exam i got to see a video of a porter going down killing one skydiver. It had an exit-camera monted to it. It was a full load with a tandem on it.
The jumper to go was a student doing his hopnpop from 1200m.

Fully loaded porter on jumprun @ 1200m.

Up, down, POP! comes the springloaded PC. The main tore of the right altitude rudder (sorry, don't know the right term). The porter immediately went into an uncontrollable spinning dive, the camera quit at about 300m due to extreme g-forces.

Everyone except for one jumper got out, the pilot bailed out @ 200m. The student had had his gear checked by two instructors on the ground and (assumptio here) in air too, still it happened.

The tape was a intimate analysis of what went wrong and what happened thereafter.
The student landed the main, two cells were ripped but it was still manouverable.

If you've seen the consequences of such a minor source, you don't mind putting in that little effort to prevent it.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Up, down, POP! comes the springloaded PC.

What caused the ripcord to be pulled out of the closing loop?

Derek

[The111 1]

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If you've seen the consequences of such a minor source, you don't mind putting in that little effort to prevent it.

Not trying to argue with you Chrisky, but if you read the reasoning behind what Hook and myself posted... it actually takes a lot of effort to be as aware of your rig as we strive to be. It takes little effort to toss your rig on the ground for a packer, toss it on your back, tighten it all up in the plane, and then ask the guy behind you for a pin check. I've seen experienced people do this and it scares me. I put a lot of effort into my reasoning and actions, and while it is true that a 3rd party pincheck would require a bit more effort, I opt out not because I hate effort, but because I'm not really comfortable with someone else opening my flaps. I know there are great jumpers at DeLand, but I don't know a lot of them... if I do get a pin check (which is rare) it will be from someone I know.

EDITED TO ADD: Every pin check I have ever received (from experienced jumpers and even AFF instructors) has been followed by a forceful hand-pat on top of my main flap. This jolt to my rig is usually the hardest jolt it encounters on the entire plane ride. Think about that a minute.

EDITED TO MAKE FUN OF HOOK :

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5) I have seen people give a pin check and make the gear worse (broken seals, incorrectly closed flaps, loosen pins, bend flaps, etc). I don't trust others to correctly check my gear.

5) I jump modern, well maintained gear.

6) You can count to 5.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Chrisky 0]

I didn't mean to say that you lack that effort, it was meant concerning any kind of pincheck (even do-it-yourself ones).
If i am surrounded by people i don't know or don't think they are capable of giving a proper pincheck, i will also check it myself by feeling it.

I second that pat after the check thing.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Chrisky 0]

It's all from what i remember, it's been four years since i saw that, and i only saw it once (Don't really wanna see it again, either).

The video didn't go into much detail why the PC popped, it analyzed more what was happening to the plane. This is because it leaked through from Germanys' Agency for Aviation Accident Investigation.

If i remeber correctly, the cord was a bit shorter than usual and it looked like a very big, bulky packjob(Even to me as a student back then). Plus the student bent really strong prior to exit.
BUT THIS INFO IS NOT ACCURATE, it is only from what i remember and that may well be false.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Chrisky 0]

Please tell me how you can check if the PC is cocked doing a PIN check?

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[The111 1]

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Please tell me how you can check if the PC is cocked doing a PIN check?

Hook says:

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I pack for myself and I'm not worried about forgetting tio cock my PC.

Me says:

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I've been packing my rig since my first solo jump, and I cock my pilot chute when I do that.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Fast 0]

I would like to hear from the experienced people about what they think should and should not be done in a pin check.


When I ask for one, its only on the main pin, because I have checked the reserve one before I got in the plane, and things that I will have noticed that could effect it are open flap, reserve handle snag. (Is there something I haven't thought about?) That being said, if the flap on that is ok, it should still be ok, no need to have somone mis-close the reserve flap.

On the main, for the rig i have its pull it down to open it, flip bridle see green, pin seated correctly, good to go, close flap... have fun.


So anyways, from the experienced crowd, Things to do and not to do, generally speaking on a pin check. Education is the key. One of the things that people are saying is a problem is the '50 jump wonders' either not getting pin checks, or giving them wrong. So I would like to hear things about that so that I can learn. arguing over the merit of a pin check doesn't help. In a perfect world we wouldn't need one, in a slightly less perfect world a pin check could never cause a problem only help one, in the real world there are many things that can go wrong and hearning the good and bad things to do when checking someones gear would certainly help.

-----------------

From ground to jump I check the 3 of 3s a few times and get a pin check.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Chrisky 0]

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Hook says:

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I pack for myself and I'm not worried about forgetting tio cock my PC.

Me says:

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I've been packing my rig since my first solo jump, and I cock my pilot chute when I do that.

Me says: Same for me.

But jilmiracle criticized:

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The111, do you have a collapisable pilot chute? If so, how do you "feel" that its okay? How do you know for sure 100% that it is cocked.

I was just wondering how to check someone elses PC for cocking during a pin check?

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Chrisky 0]

A very good procedure is listed here in the Security section

EDIT: This link is listing a FULL gear check. The pin check is pretty much a part of the check in the MAIN section.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Rdutch 0]

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I always see the teams doing pin checks, but not as many fun jumpers doing it.

Thats a rule I have, if I am filming a team we all get a pin check, its too easy not to, and with me up above, no pin check could be a big problem for me. But if there is non teammates near me I always do a gratuitous pin check. (are we not our brothers keepers?)

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Fast 0]

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A very good procedure is listed here in the Security section

EDIT: This link is listing a FULL gear check. The pin check is pretty much a part of the check in the MAIN section.

Right, but there are no guidelines for what to do/not do when looking for a pin check. I mean, it sure seems simple, open flap, look at pin, look at bridle, alert fellow skydiver if there is problem, else close flap and move on.

There must be something more to what goes wrong or people are doing wrong that there is such a concern about people letting others do them. Is it just unfamiliarity of gear? or is it that someone might mess with your pin even though its ok? We have heard that there can be problems like this, but I would love to hear some guidelines.


(p.s. I'm not trying to sound argumentative or anything like that, I seriously would like to know)

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[billvon 2,454]

>Please tell me how you can check if the PC is cocked doing a PIN check?

Most kill line PC's have a window that allows someone to check to see if the kill line is in the "cocked" position; usually it exposes a green or black mark on the kill line itself.

[billvon 2,454]

>It's the group of 50 jump wonders you are with which gives me
>concern. Do they know the importance of a pin check? Have they
>been aware and careful not to drag their large bulky rig all over the
>plane? Was their rig closed properly in the first place? Do they know
>how to give a proper pin check (which includes knowing to pass on
>checking a rig they have not been trained to check)?

That's a good question. I think we all have a responsibility to try to teach new jumpers, and I generally ask people on the loads I organize if they want pin checks (at least the ones near me.) And just being in tent 4 I get asked 3 or 4 times during the boogie "how do I pack this?" or "is this OK?"

But I also have to respect their wishes if they don't want help. Doesn't mean I can't keep my eyes open; I caught two misrouted chest straps (one was completely off) at Rantoul this year. But after they graduate from their student program, all you can do is offer to help.

[nathaniel 0]

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How many pre-matures or malfunctions have there been because someone DID receive a pin check? How many have probably been prevented by getting a pin check.

I popped someone's pin once after he asked me for a pin check. His main flap was tight and his closing loop was loose (and the pin was sideways). Using my finger to got a better grip on his main flap I dislodged his pin and that was it.

Fortunately this happened on the ground....

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[skycat 0]

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There must be something more to what goes wrong or people are doing wrong that there is such a concern about people letting others do them

I think It's the fact that when someone does a pin check they get a little too excited about opening and closing things. I've had people completely open my reserve flap because as a student the reserve flap was velcro, easy open and close. My reserve is packed super tight is a bitch to get closed on the ground and if hook hadn't been on the plane, I would have been riding it down, no one near me could reclose the reserve flap tabs. Now when someone asked if I need a pin check I state main only and ask them to not hit the rig when done. Of course I jump with hook all the time so he usually does it if I need one. And he gives me a kiss instead of a smack.

But what is it with people who grab my hackey and give it a tug? Do they have a death wish? Repeat after me, "tugging the hackey does not make it more secure".

Fly it like you stole it!

[rgoper 0]

i check my own gear religiously. that said, i also do PHT's all the way to the jump ship, at pin check, and right before exit. i'll let some one i trust check my main pin, but no one ever touches my reserve pin, or flap, and i ask before the pin check for them not to slap the shit out of my container telling me "your good" i hate that. i had a fellow jumper give me a pin check here a couple of months ago and he said "your good" i asked "what color in the window?" he said "red" i replied that's a kick, i have a Jim Cazar PC and the kill line is blue, next thing you know his face was red. but, how do you know whomever is checking your pins is really checking them? i've gotten to where i check my own, i'm preparred for a premie, or any othe situation before i exit the jump ship.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[SkydiverRick 0]

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would like to test that theory (on the gound, of course) at sometime with any willing takers.

OK. How exactly would you like to test my ability to check my pins myself?

My policy of not getting a pin check is based on several factors:

1) I pack for myself and I'm not in the habit of mis-routing my bridle or forgetting to cock my PC. The same can't be said for jumpers or teams that use packers.

2) I can reach back and feel both my main and reserve flaps and pins and ensure they are where they are supposed to be.

3) I am extremely careful with my rig in the aircraft. This means both my movements and others movements that could affect my rig.

4) I have never seen a problem with a rig that couldn't have been prevented by either a) packing the rig themselves, b) doing a gear check prior to and after donning the rig, c) being careful with movements in the aircraft and aware of others movements that may affect their rig.

5) I have seen people give a pin check and make the gear worse (broken seals, incorrectly closed flaps, loosen pins, bend flaps, etc). I don't trust others to correctly check my gear.

5) I jump modern, well maintained gear.

If someone wants a pin check, fine. I won't put them down for their decision. I am careful with their gear, noting how they have stowed their flaps and put them back the same way. If I see something, I tell the person what I see, and if they ask me to fix it, I do and tell them exactly what I am doing to fix it. If possible, I don't open their flaps, instead, I peek in through the side.

Derek

That sums it up pretty good. I'm in total agreement.

never pull low......unless you are

[Chrisky 0]

Thanks for the info, i've seen the window when other people were packing, but never paid much attention to its exact location as i don't have one.
So the window is right next to the pin?

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Nullified 0]

One time on the way up getting ready to do a hop 'n pop I asked someone, a jumper with over 5000 jumps to give me a pin check, and his response just about floored me. In front of 20 other people on the plane, mostly students, he chastised me for requiring a pin check. His logic was that If I'd gotten a proper gear check before boarding, there shouldn't be any reason to need one on the plane, especially since I was only doing a hop 'n pop. I guess he's got a point in that I'm going to be deploying right away anyway, but still, I think that to bitch at someone for asking for a safety check is ridiculous, especially in front of students. I had someone else check it for me.
Stay safe.

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.