Students jumping WITHOUT an altimeter

[PhreeZone 15]

> Unless the BPA has changed, they have a 180 day reserve repack rule where as the USPA uses 120 days

The USPA has no say so in the matter. The FAA does. And it looks like in a few years the US will hopefully move to the 180 cycle like 2/3's the world is already on.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[listo 0]

I know that there has been talk of it changing, but regardless my point was that it is more strict than what the BPA enforces at this time.

I was just making a point.

Listo

[Kris 0]

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I can't read anywhere on this thread that I have retracted anything that I have said?

Ahem. See my post before this one.

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Sure, in free fall that student isn't really going to need an altimeter, but what about the canopy ride. Altimeters are more important for the canopy ride than anything else. Wouldn't you say?

As a beginning student just getting the sight picture, yeah, I'll agree with that. Honestly, since jump 50 or 60 I only check it to see what I opened at maybe once out of every 10 jumps. Usually, I don't look at mine under canopy though.
If I'm taking up a load of IAD students I usually don't wear an alti anyway. I'll look at the alti in the plane or on the student if I need to know where I'm at.

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Lets say that you have a static line student or 5-10 second delay without an altimeter. At deployment something snags a hole in the top skin of the canopy. The student doesn't recognize it until they are about 500 feet above the ground when it tears even more making the canopy less than stable, yet landable. Is that student going to know that they are too low to cut away from it?

Quite honestly, I would be surprised if you could find a student with less than 5-6 jumps that would remember to even look at their alti in that situation, much less notice something wrong with the top-skin of their canopy.

I have had a student come up to me after their fifth jump to ask what color canopy they had jumped as they could not even remember that. That little incident prompted a 15-minute brief from me on actually looking at the canopy while doing a controllability check on opening.

Students are entirely too unpredicatable, even with hours of focused training, to guess how they will respond in the air. I've had people who aced my FJC and all the ground prep absolutely make my stomach turn once they've left the step. I've also been surprised by the ones that seemed a little confused (okay, like a box of rocks but not bad enough to hold back) but passable in class when they ace the actual event with a perfect arch, including a double thumbs-up or a wave, after letting go of the strut.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[listo 0]

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I have had a student come up to me after their fifth jump to ask what color canopy they had jumped as they could not even remember that. That little incident prompted a 15-minute brief from me on actually looking at the canopy while doing a controllability check on opening

Shouldn't this have been covered in the FJC when you were telling them how to check to make sure the canopy was SQUARE, STABLE, STEARABLE instead of after they were on the ground from their fifth jump or in the pre-jump briefing that an instructor is supposed to give a student before each jump.

Ahem!

I have never had a student of mine come up to me with anything like that because they all know that as soon as that thing opens, the first thing they are supposed to do is check to make sure it is a good canopy. I teach this in my FJC and breifly cover it before each jump that I instruct on as well.

However, once again this is getting off subject. Lets keep this thread open to discussion of students jumping without altimeters.

I jump in the US and follow USPA standards in doing so. I would like to hear reasoning behind why people don't let students jump with altimeters from time to time. I have made my views quite clear as to why I am against such practices and others have made their views as well.

If you would like to start another thread relating to subjects other than why I posted this thread, please feel free to do so, but lets keep this one on track.

Listo

[Liemberg 0]

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If you do a 5 second delay from an aircraft, the odds of an altimeter being a liability outweighs its benefits. This has been backed up by thousands of students who learned to skydive without altimeters.

That was true maybe in the days with round mains and chest-mounted reserves. But nowadays people chop malfunctions. They may have a hard time recognizing one and they may have a hard time assessing the minimum safe altitude to determine their course of action (give it one more jerk or chop it? I have been there and others have been there too - I actually saved the day on occasion...)

Real life story about a 'slow learner' - happened at my place several years ago.

SL student jumps (jump nr 3 or 4 - cant remember exactly) from 3500ft and has a streamer (yes I know they are rare, but he had one, nonetheless) He doesn't do what he was trained to, but grabs his risers and shakes the canopy.
After some 15 seconds of acceleration the canopy starts to open partially, reducing his speed to a level where the AAD doesn't work anymore. He plays around with the malfunction 'an eternity' longer and then, without looking at his altimeter he chops and has a five second reserve ride prior to landing.

That was one of the most dangerous things I ever saw one of my students do. He had an altimeter but he never looked at it.

OTOH I saw others that also had a mal who reported back in the line of "I couldn't get the twist out, it wasn't square and I was at 2000ft soooo...."
(Telling all this in a public forum makes it sound as every other student has a mal but you know what I mean...)

To sum it up - when he jumps something that he is supposed to chop when it malfunctions, a good altimeter is a prerequisite for a student, though it IS possible for the student to forget about it, 'in the heat of the moment'.

Now only teach them to ALWAYS look at the dang thing when the parachute opens but not completely in the way as seen in the commercial...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Faber 0]

the dz near me does first recomend to use alti when they do 5sek(we only make sl-students),however i think its stupid,not to wear atleast a visual alti at a skydive,what ever you are a student or a expert.Only place it woud be common not to use would be at water jumps(planed),whith max 10 sek of delay.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Faber 0]

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since jump 50 or 60 I only check it to see what I opened at maybe once out of every 10 jumps. Usually, I don't look at mine under canopy though.

If you dont look at you alti,then your a accident waiting to happen,look around you and see how many freinds we have lost to altiadwardness..
You are rigth,when the canopi is cheked then you dont need your alti anymore,but students does,they need to learn when they are in the rigth altittude to a approch..

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I would be surprised if you could find a student with less than 5-6 jumps that would remember to even look at their alti in that situation

Klap your hands,while i aint a student anymore i have ALWAYS used a alti,never jumped whith out

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I have had a student come up to me after their fifth jump to ask what color canopy they had jumped as they could not even remember that

who cares about collors?do you rember the collor of all the wiricles you have driven in?no..But you sure rember if somthing were wrong at them,and thats the importent(hope i spelled that rigth).

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even with hours of focused training, to guess how they will respond in the air.

Thats becours US dzs makes mony at students,and dont "care"much,while many first timers just want to try it them self,and think of it as a rollercoaster..Howmany hours are used at students?Here it takes 3*wedensday teori,1/2saturday showing emergency procedures and health test.Then they are alowed to jump..

But again different places different ways..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Kris 0]

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If you dont look at you alti,then your a accident waiting to happen,look around you and see how many freinds we have lost to altiadwardness..
You are rigth,when the canopi is cheked then you dont need your alti anymore,but students does,they need to learn when they are in the rigth altittude to a approch.

Let me clarify, I do use my alti in freefall, but I was referring to once my canopy is open.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Push 0]

I checked, and I found that in a safety manual released by the CSPA. I really have no idea how accurate that is, having only done my 21st yesterday. The 1000' figure was purely hypothetical. I really don't know much about this in a quantifiable fashion, I was just trying to convey something I read.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[dayle 0]

Hey Listo, how's it going
I'm just one of those ignorant souls that you would owe beer too. You will never convince me that there is any substitute for a good pair of eyes and sound judgement. You know when you jump out of a plane that thing below you that keeps getting bigger?? Pull before you hit it....no matter what your alti says. For those that are not intelligent enough and don't/can't recognize that the ground is getting really big and moving really fast, well there is Darwin's theory......... Student or not, you can tell when your low or you shouldn't be in the sport.
To tell you the truth, I dont' remember if I had a alti the first time I jumped........All I was thinking was
ARCH!!!one thousand, two thou, three, CHECK!!!!!
and all the possible bad things that could happen and what to do about them. But I loved every min. of it and let out a big sigh of relief when it was a good chute.
I think that you made your opinion well known on this thread in the first oh, I don't know 3 pages????
I agree with another poster, don't be so USPA centric, there are other places in the world to jump you know.
I feel that there is no need for ANY alti device on any jump with less than a 10 sec delay. (CSPA) Anything more, requires the use of an alti.....for everyone!!! Ifeel this is a good enough safety rule to let people decide for themselves.
As for teaching students, I was not taught to look at my alti if I had a mal. I didn't have one. At CHECK, if it's not working properly, cut it and go. (line twist exception pls). You know the KISS system. I also agree with another poster, the first jump student is on information overload, to be followed by sensory overload when they leave that plane. All they are looking for is a good chute and to take appropriate action if it's not.
And as to your example of the student that would cut at 500 feet? I can only cite Darwin. ANYONE can recognize 500 feet, can't they?? especially if they just exited at 3,500? That's a hell of a difference and even a student should recognize that.
Someone else mentioned the example of a student that fought with a steamer for 15 sec. jumping from 3500 feet......Well although he most certainly had a brain lock he was still at 2000 feet, which is not all that low and recognized that time had passed and initiated emergency proceedures. This just illustrates what riggerrob was saying and I agree with him 100%. If something goes wrong, your student will be too busy trying to fix it or hopefully going to emergency proceedures. That's why students are put out the door at 3,500 to 4,000 feet. after 15 seconds they are still around 2,000 feet AGL. and hopefully they will recognize the amount of time that has gone by.

The next bit is for those that don't bother to read the ENTIRE thread.....I don't believe anyone is advocating sending students out the door from 10,500 or 13,500 without an altimeter on a first jump.
Now for your question as to why, well first I'm not sure if they really need it. It might be nice for the canopy ride but other than that it's useless for a s/l or IAD jumper.
The second one is economics... when your jumping four students out of a cessna at a time doing back to back loads, that's 8 Alti's......forget that...and a first time student generally is not going to maybe, take proper care of the equipment. I belive someone mentioned dropping them on concrete, happens all the time. (and not just to students)
As for me....if I'm jumping from Altitude, yes, I wear a ditter and use an Alti. For hop & pop's, hardly ever, I just grab my rig and go. (hey this will really get you listo, I sometimes don't wear goggles either)

Anyways, sorry enough of my rant but I've seen this thead go on, and on and finally decided to put my .02 in.

Blue skies everyone....you too Listo

Dayle

[Liemberg 0]

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Someone else mentioned the example of a student that fought with a streamer for 15 sec. jumping from 3500 feet......Well although he most certainly had a brain lock he was still at 2000 feet, which is not all that low and recognized that time had passed and initiated emergency proceedures.

Please reread my post for that was NOT what happened! The student never realized how much time had passed with the streamer that developed into a 'slow malfunction'. He NEVER looked at the ground while working on the problem ABOVE HIS HEAD. He could have and should have looked at his altimeter but didn't - after the cutaway he had 5 seconds under canopy.

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And as to your example of the student that would cut at 500 feet? I can only cite Darwin.

Furthermore, I (nor any other DZO) am not in business to prove Darwins point. People that don't have what it takes to jump safely on their own shouldn't be removed from the gene pool - they should be removed from the pleasure of jumping on their own.
I own a box full of altimeters and yes - often that is a nuisance. Wanna talk about AAD maintenance?
The way you always seem to end up with one reserve open and another rig in a muddy ditch?
I would love to have certain things less complicated but I'm above all working on avoiding dents in my DZ. So sometimes a load has to wait cause we have to pick up an altimeter from the previous load.
It is thoroughly possible that because of that, someone will miss the last load of the day. It might even rain the next day...
Big deal...

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Now for your question as to why, well first I'm not sure if they really need it. It might be nice for the canopy ride but other than that it's useless for a s/l or IAD jumper.

If they want to steer their canopy and end up in the middle of that one BIG field without OBSTACLES, to land against the wind, they should be upwind at the edge of that field at 2000ft and right above their target at 750ft. Wanna keep em on radio until they have their A-license? How are they going to find out where they are without an altimeter?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[listo 0]

Well said Liemberg!

Dayle, as for my feelings on alti use, well, I believe that you are correct that someone needs to be able to see if they are low or not. However, I don' t know any first time jumpers or people with less than 50 jumps that could recognize the difference between 3,500 and 2,500. Hopefully, if they are like me, when they even get close to that altitude without an alti, they will pull instead of taking it lower just to get a few more seconds of free fall. After all, altitude is everyone's friend. The more you have, the safer you are because you will have more time to fix something gone wrong.

My point is this, sure, you don't really need an alti for a ten second jump, but that 10 second jump isn't over once the ten seconds is over, there is still a canopy ride to deal with, patterns to be set up ect... Now, if you are referring to someone learning visual altitude awareness, well there isn't one person that is going to learn that in one jump my friend. That has to be learned from repeated jumps while incoporating the "practice" of learning visual accuity. It is much safer to teach this by doing a visual guess and then cross ref'ing with a visual alti. Suggesting otherwise is simply ignorant and closed minded.

Lets say that a student or low timer is under a low wing loaded canopy (usually most of the time, or should be). Visual altitude awarness is used for timing purposes, to see where you are vs. where you want to be at a given time (given time: altitude, ground location, relativness to other canopies ect...) Ok, this happens to be a hot summer day and the thermals are kicking like crazy, that low wing loaded canopy might float for a while. Isnt' this going to make the jumper feel like they might have misjudged their altitude since it is taking longer to get down than they thought it would have been. Wouldn't it be better for that jumper to be able to see that they aren't coming down as fast as they thought they were or the opposite of that....what if they are coming down faster than normal?

How can anyone say that jumping without an altimeter is a viable way to learn visual accuity? It is a huge fallacy. Human beings have horrible depth perception.

If someone gets to 3,500 and their alti locks up, then five seconds later if it is still reading 3,500, something is wrong and pulling would be a good idea

Here is something to think about. If you will notice, all birds have their eyes located on the side of their head. This is for two reasons. First it is so that they can see more of what is around them. The second thing is this. Depth perception is attained from peripheral vision. A bird's peripheral vision is directly in front of them, unlike a human being's which is at the sides. As humans we learn that we have to look where we are going so we don't run into things. How many low time jumpers do you know that are going to concentrate on their peripheral vision, not many. They are going to look at the ground or a spot on the horizon. While looking at the horizon helps to use peripheral, it still isn't as good as solely using peripheral vision to judge altitude. The other thing, how is a low time jumper going to know what "picture" to see. After all, they haven't been doing it long enough to really know what that picture is supposed to look like. The other thing, what if that jumper is at a different DZ where the picture is different?

You say that you jump all of the time with an alti. Why is that? You say that you don't jump with an alti on ten second delays. Why is that? I am going to suggest that your mental clock is something you trust. I don't trust a low time jumper's mental clock personally. Low timers are just that, low timers. After all, it is common knowledge that a person's first 200 skydives are their most dangerous. It is because they don't have the knowledge and experience that us more experienced jumpers have. Lets not increase the risk of them getting hurt by having them guess at altitude. After all, altitude is the one thing that keeps us from dieing on every jump. If we lose altitude, it won't matter if we have a good canopy over our head or not.

It sucks when someone presents a point that differs from what we believe. It sucks more to have to change our views that we believe in because someone else presents a better and safer way of doing something. Leave the ego on the ground and help our students live longer, after all, they are the life blood of our sport.
Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[markbaur 0]

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Depth perception is attained from peripheral vision. A bird's peripheral vision is directly in front of them, unlike a human being's which is at the sides.

The more usual explanation is binocular vision (cats, owls) = predator, where range info is important; and monocular vision (chickens, deer) = prey, where greater field of view is more important.

We do use angles in peripheral vision for speed information (the telephone poles at the side of the road whiz by faster than the mountains behind them, or the road in front of us).

Mark

[billvon 2,463]

> Human beings have horrible depth perception.

There are thousands of jumpers who regularly prove you wrong there.

>After all, it is common knowledge that a person's first 200 skydives
> are their most dangerous. It is because they don't have the
> knowledge and experience that us more experienced jumpers have.

That's exactly right, and that's the time they _need_ experienced jumpers to help them along. They need to learn how to fly their canopy, not just be left on a huge canopy so when they screw up they don't get hurt. Sometimes they even need to learn on a smaller canopy so they can really learn how to fly it, even if that adds a little to the risk they face. Sometimes they need to start doing bigger formations, because there are things you just can't learn from two ways (like center pointing) even if it increases the risk to them slightly. Sometimes they have to try somewhat dangerous things, like rear riser flares, flat turns and no-altimeter jumps, so that when they need to do these things for real, they will survive.

It's easy to ignore newbies at the 200 jump stage, just tell them to get coach jumps, stay on their Triathalon 190 and don't turn low, and use a cypres, RSL, hard helmet, altimeter and jumpsuit on every single jump. That's the lazy man's way out, one that doesn't help them. People helped me learn when I had that number of jumps, so I feel like I should return the favor.

>Leave the ego on the ground and help our students live longer,
>after all, they are the life blood of our sport.

Agreed; we need to teach them what they need to survive, even if it makes us uncomfortable or goes againt our cherished beliefs on safety equipment always being a good thing. To me, learning to judge altitude without an altimeter is something they need to survive.

[listo 0]

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To me, learning to judge altitude without an altimeter is something they need to survive.

I agree that every jumper out there needs to be able to use visual referrences for altitude awareness. However, I disagree that jumping without an altimeter is the best way to acheive this. I tell all of my students that they shouldn't trust their alti 100% all of the time. I suggest this in conjunction with giving advice on how to learn to use their eyes.

I tell my students to make an educated guess on their altitude and then cross ref with their alti. I tell them to do this at least 5 times from the time they leave the airplane, with at least 3 of those being while under canopy. The reasoning for more times under canopy is because it is the lower altitudes and those altitudes are the most important. Especially if "you" are still in free fall the next time instead of being under canopy. "Altimeters can and do fail from time to time" is what I tell them the reasoning is behind it.

More often that not, altimeters DO NOT fail. Not only is an altimeter a good means for altitude awarness, it is also one heck of darn good training device for visual accuity. There is not one arguement otherwise if common sense is applied, and it should be.

Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[rigging65 0]

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Not only is an altimeter a good means for altitude awarness, it is also one heck of darn good training device for visual accuity. There is not one arguement otherwise if common sense is applied, and it should be.

And how do you plan on keeping them from becoming dependent on a devise that CAN and DOES fail, even if it's failure is infrequent? We have people that will not ever jump without a Cypres because they feel they cannot be safe without one...even though they've always deployed for themselves and handled their malfunctions on their own. Dependency is not good...IMO the only way to break away from dependency is to prove to yourself that YOU CAN DO IT WITHOUT THE DEVICE!

For students, jumping without an alti is not a great idea, but they've got to learn how to be their own, independent pilot sometime...better earlier than later! A Cypres is a wonderful device, but who says it can't fail either? At the end of the day, you and you alone make the calls that save or endanger your life. The only device you can count on it yourself, so learn how to use it! Everything else is just backup....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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That's exactly right, and that's the time they _need_ experienced jumpers to help them along. They need to learn how to fly their canopy, not just be left on a huge canopy so when they screw up they don't get hurt. Sometimes they even need to learn on a smaller canopy so they can really learn how to fly it, even if that adds a little to the risk they face.

I can't tell you how refreshing it is to hear you say this.

I obviously fall into this category of "dangerous to myself" skydivers being the 160+ jump wonder in only 7+ months. Now I'd like to believe that many of my jumps haven't been all that dangerous. But believe it or not, I have learned some lessons along the way and this is mainly because I haven't been just doing docile jumps.

Now I am a freeflier by heart and yes I did learn how to sit before I started venturing head down (I still have issues with my head down I'm trying to work on). But I also got to do something during the Eloy x-mas boogie that I would never get a chance to do around my home DZs and that was to participate in large formation loads. I did talk with some fellow more seasoned DZ.COMers the night before these loads and they thought we were all crazy (what with our experience levels), but it was a good experience and hopefully lessons were learned by more than myself (my biggest lesson was to be leary of the base's burble).

Another area where I do realize that I am putting myself at some risk is in my canopy flying. But this is an accepted risk which I am willing to take (hey I'm not a crazy low-jump #s yahoo flying a 1.6-2.0+ elliptical canopy so please keep the flames to a minimum). But recently I did learn a valuable lesson. For a long time now I've loved using my front risers, but this was mainly after I turned final. But thanks to a canopy course I recently attended, I learned that front riser turns performed differently than toggle turns and I started experimenting with them. Well on one jump I came within about 10 feet of not being able to recover from the riser dive and obviously could have really hurt myself. Lessons learned? A lot of altitude can and will be lost on front riser turns and divers, so I need to initiate them higher and not be so aggresive with them at this stage of my novice swooping career. And since that incident, my front riser dives have been initiated much higher and my landings have been pretty nice. Would I have learned this lesson if I was still doing docile toggle turns on my old 7 cell triathlon? Maybe, but probably not.

Anyway, I do agree that we low-timers need to not push the envelope too much. But we must also learn from our mistakes just as long as those mistakes aren't the kind that kill or mame.

As far as this topic is concerned, I have yet to jump without an altimeter and I'm not sure I see a huge value in doing so in the near future. I say this because I've had two recent incidents which makes me think that I'm reasonably aware of the altitude. In January I was head down at the end of a jump when my ProTrack failed. Looking at the horizon I noticed I was getting lower than I was used to, so I rolled out of my head down, tracked and ended up pulling at about 2200 feet. Then on my last jump last Saturday, I was on a solo head down which I knew wasn't a full altitude jump (the ceiling was about 9000 feet) and just seconds prior to my Dytter going off, I said to myself, "Dude it's about time you started thinking about getting on your belly", which I did.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Liemberg 0]

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learning to judge altitude without an altimeter is something they need to survive.

I dunno Bill, I do believe in something I would like to call 'organic growth'. Like: "Somewhere down the road" I found out my assessment of the altitude was pretty accurate - the altimeter confirmed what I knew already. My peripheral vision in freefall improved. I could make stand up landings in tighter and tighter spots. When I look at students, I see the same all the time - one person gets there a bit faster than the other, and the endresult is not always the same for everybody - each one gets there at his own pace and the better jumper is not equivalent to the safer jumper.

However as far as I see it Listo's original question was about an operation with 'modern equipment' (piggyback / IAD or static line square main that should be cutaway in case of malfunction, etc.) They are sending their first jump students up without an altimeter. That is ludicrous, even though I myself made my first 40 jumps without an altimeter.
But that was with rounds + chestmounted reserve that shouldn't be cut away. Since the altimeter is gonna malfunction anyway sometime in the future, the best you can do is 'preach the virtues' of looking at cloud layers on the way up and all the other clues that come in handy.

There is not much point in making an altimeterless (or AAD-less) jump to make people less 'device dependent'

(I know chuteless has been done but I'm way to chicken...so there is at least on 'device' I'll always take with me...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[rendezvous 0]

I think depth perception is somthing that is developed over a period of time and once you've attained a certain level of comfort. To expect students to deal with it when they have so many other things to learn about and worry over is out right stupid and dangerous.

[listo 0]

100% correct! You make a very valid point. I commend you for saying in one paragraph what is has been taking me pages to do. Thank you.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[livendive 8]

It's not uncommon for me to jump without an altimeter, goggles, helmet, or jumpsuit and I don't have a CYPRES or RSL. I do usually carry my Pro-Track, but it's just in my pants/shorts pocket to log the jump for me. As long as the plane can get me to altitude, two parachutes and three handles are all the devices I need.

Oh, and as for your assumption about Aggie Dave or whoever it was, I've also made a no-moon night jump without an altimeter. Someone noticed in the plane that his was broken, so I gave him mine. No big deal.

All that said, I wouldn't put a student out without an altimeter.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[sducoach 0]

I had an altimeter fail during a tandem video. After rolling over and shooting the opening I rolled belly to earth and checked altitude, It read 5K. When I looked down I knew it was not 5k. How?
Experience from looking at an altimeter and the ground while wearing the altimeter.
What if your student/new jumper makes a mistake without the altimeter on this suggested jump? Or its a hop/pop and you twist it up? Check altitude?

It makes no difference if its freefall or under canopy its a safety devise, use it. Depend on it? No, gain the experience with it so that when it does fail you will know what to do.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[nightjumps 1]

Well, here I go... This is probably going to hurt, but so be it.

I like the idea of not having an altimeter on students. Its how I learned in the dark ages. I learned to count well from the time I left the plane and I counted again after pulling my ripcord handle. I learned how to observe the ground and determine my altitude with "my calibrated eyeballs" and a time count. It built my internal clock.

I bought my own gear and had a belly-mounted dashboard with an altimeter and a stop watch. The altimeter blew off one day, but I still knew exactly how high I was. I didn't buy a new altimeter for a couple of years, counted and used the stop watch.

SO... I once heard an AFF Instructor gloating about his ability to teach an AFF course in three hours. My thoughts are, How much better training and how long would you spend with your students if they were taught without the aid of an altimeter, an AAD and an RSL. Would that make you a better intrstructor. It made my Instructor's great Instructors. No detail left unattended.

Let the bashing begin. But before it does, think about it. What more would you teach if you didn't have those devices on your students? Cause, if you're not teaching them as though they don't have them......

[Bunyip 0]

I agree ... how can a student develop height awareness without an alti? It takes a long time to know an approximate altitude when you are in freefall.

Also ... they will probably wear them throughout most of their skydiving career ... so get them young

[billvon 2,463]

>Lets see, If I take away a safety device I become a better skydiver??

If you can demonstrate that you can jump without a safety device, then yes, you are a better skydiver. A pilot who can demonstrate a landing with no engine is a better pilot than a pilot who has never tried it (and never wants to because it's 'unsafe.')

>What if your student/new jumper makes a mistake without the altimeter
> on this suggested jump?

The odds of a skydiver doing a jump to intentionally develop altitude awareness, then forgetting that very point and not pulling at all, are pretty small. If they do forget to pull by 700 feet then their cypres fires. If they don't have one, and they forget to pull based on time, and they can't even recognize the difference 500 feet and 3000 feet, then they die.

>Or its a hop/pop and you twist it up?

Then they do the same thing that they do when they have a chest mount and the linetwists push their heads back - they guess at altitude.