ianmdrennan 2 #26 November 4, 2003 Ok - I'm probably opening myself up to a firing range with this, BUT I see NO PROBLEM with pulling higher than planned. As long as the jumper flys away from exiting groups there should be no risk of collisions with the groups behind them....that is if the group behind them has given enough seperation. What about a premature deployment (or cameramen on RW loads who dump out at breakoff) - they happen at a higher than planned altitude, but if enough seperation is given and the canopy flys AWAY from the aircraft there should be no near misses by a long shot. If pulling high causes a near collision - the issue is not with the opened canopy, but the group behind them who did not give enough seperation. My thoughts. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #27 November 4, 2003 > Ok - I'm probably opening myself up to a firing range with this, > BUT I see NO PROBLEM with pulling higher than planned. > As long as the jumper flys away from exiting groups there > should be no risk of collisions with the groups behind them.... > that is if the group behind them has given enough seperation. I almost agree with this except for: - If you're jumping with a group of people you should - stick to the plan and not decide in mid stream to pull higher - If more than one plane is flying you need to get down out - of the kill zone before the next plane comes along. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 November 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteGives you a greater capacity for accident management and so long as it's known, doesn't put anyone else at issue. (Shouldn't even if they don't) You just answered your own question. There is nothing at all wrong with pulling at 4-5K, hell even 10K or 13K, as long as people know in advance! It wont make much difference at a small DZ usually, but when you get to a big DZ with non-stop turbines, you're asking for problems if you pull 1500K higher than planned. Plan the dive, dive the plan Doesn't quite answer it for me. Please elaborate. As the name should suggest, I come from a diver background. I am very experienced here, and have well over 100 solo dives. There, when a dive isn't going well, you don't stick to your plan, you surface. The only exception would be if the dive is in a shipping lane where boats may be cruising. Then you make your best effort to get out of the zone first. But if you can't, you surface. You need to be on top to live. On that same notion, if you're diving with a team, any member can call the dive at any moment, without explanation or debate. Not only an option, but a requirement, since you don't want to be diving with a buddy that is not well. Likewise, first priority is PULL. And we're not talking grossly high, rather the same difference between and A and D jumper anyway. If this little variation poses a great problem, I wonder about the process to start with. If a skydive is going poorly, why wait to pull? (this would cover low jump belly flyers, alone or perhaps with another - not a large formation) Being in the middle of AFF, my pull is quite high. But I'll be in no hurry to drop it to 3k either. No interest in being contentious - just want to hear about the safety and etiquette issues. and what planned height need be declared? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #29 November 4, 2003 >If pulling high causes a near collision - the issue is not with the opened >canopy, but the group behind them who did not give enough seperation. At a busy DZ, the next load may be dropping 1-2 minutes after you open. If you open at 4500 feet and one of the jumpers who is first out plans to pull at 2000 feet, you will not be below 2000 feet by the time he gets there - especially if you have a large canopy. This is a big issue with tandems, since they regularly open very high. Jump runs at busy DZ's have to be planned with the high opening last-out tandems in mind. If one of the first people out also becomes a high opener - that can cause problems. In addition, while horizontal separation is key to safe skydiving, vertical separation is a backup that can keep you from a freefall collision. You can't rely on it but it can save you from problems. In my opinion you need a good reason (like a gear problem, such as an out of sequence deployment) to give up that extra separation. That being said, there's nothing wrong with opening high if you plan for it. Even if you just want the _option_ of opening at 4500, just tell the load organizer (or the people around you) and they will generally be able to accomodate you. The only time it's really a problem is when the high canopy comes unexpectedly, or in places where they simply don't have the airspace to accomodate you (as in the WFFC.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tailgate 0 #30 November 4, 2003 I was there just a few weeks ago. I was going through the posts on mals all week and evidently fixated on them. I wake up the morning that I was going to jump fairly PETRIFIED that I was going to bounce. I told myself that I would just go tot he DZ and if I didn't want to jump, I wouldn't. Got to the DZ, felt the vibes. Had a great jump. One thing I really like about the skydivers that I have encountered is that if for some reason you personally feel like you can't jump, nobody gives you serious crap about it. Just another newbie's 2 cents Good luck _________________________________________________ Let me live in my house by the side of the road and be a friend to man- Sam Walter Foss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #31 November 4, 2003 I can understand why some have recommended you "stay away" from the incidents forums, but I feel otherwise. Keep in mind that I don't have even 100 jumps yet and I still question my choices sometimes too. BUT... From a rational point of view, I don't think we should ever delude ourselves. If you are not totally cool with the fact that you could die on any jump, you probably shouldn't be jumping. I laugh when I say that because I sound like some hardass from a bad skydiving movie, but it's the truth. The choice to skydive is based on economics. You weigh what you can gain versus what you can lose and make a choice. I honestly think a lot of people delude themselves. I haven't been in the sport a long time or watched someone die, so I could be wrong. But often I hear someone say that after seeing a gruesome incident they take some time off and reconsider why they jump. Taking time off out of respect for the dead, or because you are so depressed you don't want to jump is one thing, but to say that you are re-evaluating why you jump, based on what you saw, implies that you were unaware of that possibility before. If you can't picture something like that before every jump and imagine it's you, I don't think you're being honest with yourself when you exit that door. And I don't claim to be entirely immune to this self-deluding either...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipro101 0 #32 November 5, 2003 Quote From a rational point of view, I don't think we should ever delude ourselves. If you are not totally cool with the fact that you could die on any jump, you probably shouldn't be jumping. I laugh when I say that because I sound like some hardass from a bad skydiving movie, but it's the truth. The choice to skydive is based on economics. You weigh what you can gain versus what you can lose and make a choice. I honestly think a lot of people delude themselves. I haven't been in the sport a long time or watched someone die, so I could be wrong. But often I hear someone say that after seeing a gruesome incident they take some time off and reconsider why they jump. Taking time off out of respect for the dead, or because you are so depressed you don't want to jump is one thing, but to say that you are re-evaluating why you jump, based on what you saw, implies that you were unaware of that possibility before. If you can't picture something like that before every jump and imagine it's you, I don't think you're being honest with yourself when you exit that door. And I don't claim to be entirely immune to this self-deluding either... I dont think you realize what seeing something like that can do to you. You can tell yourself all you want that you know it can happen, but I think if you actually saw it, you probably would take some time off just like he did.. I am an EMT and I have seen some really severe trauma. There is nothing like a piece of glass through the eye or an arm that was torn off an MVA victum to make you re asses your seatbelt wearing practices or speed limit driving habits! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #33 November 5, 2003 QuoteI am almost at 25 jumps and am about to get my A license. I have spent 4400 on gear and 1.8k on training. Now I sit here, reading the incidents forum, watching malfunctions on skydivingmovies.com and im well... scared. Do any of you get this way? Question whether or not you should be doing this? I guess it might have something to do with having two malfucntions in a row (both two outs)... I dunno. I just got this feeling in my stomach like...It would be so incredibly easy to die. Its even worse on the plan ride up.... While in freefall I am constantly worried about not being able to find my handle. On my last two jumps I pulled 1.5k higher than I was supposed too..on purpose...because I had that gut feeling. I hope this goes away. Too Scared to Jump read the article about the night dive, linked at the bottom of this page too. The key is to not worry about crap that can go wrong at pull time until pull time. Enjoy yourself - it might be your last jump ;) Might as well have fun! Most times everything will go ok. If Murphy strikes, just deal with it. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #34 November 5, 2003 QuoteDo any of you get this way? Question whether or not you should be doing this? Ever once in a while on jump run I'll ask myself why in the world I want to do this...or sometimes I even think to myself " Man this is going to suck if this is my last jump" ...But aas soonas I'm out the door all those bad thoughts go away!! And GOOD TIMES!! Hell.. its what keeps us coming back for the next jump!! jasonFreedom of speech includes volume Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #35 November 5, 2003 I know what you're talking about, and this past weekend made it a little bit worse, especially when it was time to land, given the incident that occurred while I was there on Saturday. Landing absolutely terrifies me now, and I actually hurt myself on Sunday because I was paying so much attention to the other canopies that I flared really late. How hard is it to learn to avoid other canopies? I'm just now at the point where I land among others, and it's scaring the crap out of me. I miss the days when exit and deployment were the scariest aprts (well, not really, but now I don't get the sense of relief halfway through that I used to). Blue skies, Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustRelax 0 #36 November 6, 2003 18 jumps myself. What took u so long, I say? I think you're just aware, as u should be, of the danger. As u should be, that will make you serious about the safety side...double check and triple check everything. I figure its gutsy to face it and do it properly. Join me mate in taking care and we might be talking like pros 200 jumps from now. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
