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    Raven !
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  1. Yeah, thanks. I got the whole thing wrong. Also your explanation is clear, so thanks. I did a week of skydiving this week, so was testing riser turns and asking about my crazy idea. One thing I did was run my idea past an experienced crew pilot. He said in CREW they use the front and rear opposites when they want to sit a canopy in one place. So obviously that is not efficient flight, but a stable stall effect. Doing some relative work, reinforced the benefit of using rear risers for lift compared with other canopies normal flight. Yes, I understand harness turns are most efficient because there is the least change in the wing shape and that combined with either rear riser or fron riser turns is pretty efficient. The CREW guy I spoke to reackons using a hard rear only to spiral is very fast way to get down. it seems front risers are the most efficient for speed with harnes turn because it adds the dive. That adds up to how soopers use fronts with harnes to get speed, and rears to plane out. I guess to get any more knowleadgeable on the subject it'd be good for me to get into measuring with JumpTrack or somethign like that. Thanks for the feedback, while I get my ideas sorted out. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  2. My misquoting - I meant it looks like some swoopers have their legs straps loose enough (not loosen them) then push them down their thighs a bit in order to have more radical harness turns. ----------------------------- Trying to sum up the feedback - I used rear risers for swooping down hills for groundlaunching, which means you can go down hills such as 30 degree gradient - I steered with them as well as adjusting swoop up and down - it kept speed up and means you can have nice manouvers over the contours of the hill - i would only use breaks if I needed to gain hight quickly. So I developed confidence in this method. I also note that a Vengeance, which is my wing, has a good range for rear riser input. From the feedback, I end up thinking a conbination of banking turns, using harnes and some rear and front riser input (would be rear right-front left or rear left-front right) is the most effective for turning. The difference from ground launching would be using the front risers, which I couldn't do because of the nature of that kind of swoop. In skydiving it is going to be easier to use front risers. well I'll try adding the front risers and see how it feels. PS This is not so I can skydive swoop, but just for my turns generally. thanks for the feedback _________________________________________ ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  3. that is called harnas turn.... Yes, harness turning is the same thing. I see, on the forum, some people loosen leg straps and push them down thighs to have a greater affect when harness turning. It is the same thing to help it by using front and rear risers as I suggest, isn't it? ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  4. Thanks. Yes, I have watched some canopy pilots switching from rears to brakes without dropping. I will refine it. When they let go of the rears they trasition quickly by pulling the barke handles outwards and so the transition in the wing is smooth. I just haven't refined that yet. >Flying with toggles,rears,fronts and body is a good >idea, use what you got. Yes, that is what I have concluded. >If you want more speed for landing, use fronts for a >real swoop.(not sure if 130 jumps is right to >experiment with all that, though) Yes I think even a combiantion of front and rear risers ina turn would be the most efficient theoretically. I explained in my othe rpost that I am not rying to be a swooper and my jump numbers make that not wise. There is a difference between diving at the ground as swoopers do and ground lanching where once you settle it is a navigation over train as in the final swoop along the ground. so groundlaunching has given me canopy skills but not driving towards the ground and pulling out skills, which is what I see skydiving swooping is about. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  5. I have suggested that pulling on rear rises in a turn creates a more propeller shape to the wing rather a greater edge curve effect caused by using the brakes. This is my thought as to how a rear rise turn feels smoother and faster to me. It seems the normal way discussed is to use front risers, but then I am not trying to get maximum speed necessarily, just an efficient turn. Below I conclude that if I was turning right and put on some rear right riser and front left riser at the same time that might be the fastest turn/dive sequence. The Write brothers invented the modern propeller - they also found that the relative angle of attack from the forward movement of the aircraft was different for all points along the length of the blade, thus it was necessary to introduce a twist along its length. This is a priciple that carries over to when you “turn” a wing, I believe. I mentioned that I do lean into (bank) the turn and that is a part of turning efficiency as I understad it, because it is banking the wing as aircrafts banks due to to the centripetal force. Angle of attach is the angle between where the chord line of the airfoil is pointing and where the airfoil is going. So, by making a propeller shape the angle of attack for the turning part of the canopy is most effcient. Both parts turn, don't they because if you bank the canopy (if I am turning right) the right end moves back a bit, with the left end moving forward more so. Hmm, something just occurred to me *. I'll diverge to windsurfing wings. When you rig a windsurfer wing for high wind/speed, you rig it so the (top of the sail) end of the wing tapers away from the lower wing camber shape. You see the same in bird wing shapes on windy days at the beach – the feathers taper back to give a propeller shape. As I understand it the end of the wing is letting wind spill over the wing more to reduce lift not needed – and also because with wind going over the wing fast the centre point of lift shifts back, so flatter wings gives faster forward movement. Because a flatter wing gives faster forward movement using risers instead of brakes, must be more efficient for speed. In my winsurfer sail/bird wing in strong wind explanation, I am decribing a propeller shape actually. With propellers there is a twisting out along the wing, so as to increase the thrust. That is the same thing as the windsurfing/bird wing. Whether you define it as thrust or spillange to counter forward movement and lift. I am leading to the point that a propeller shape is more efficient in a turn because the outer wing tip is moving aound faster than the part of the wing on the inside of the turn. With the outer wing end moving faster, if it is propeller shaped then its a faster smoother turn. Back to the propeller shape. We use it do an efficient fast 360 in freefall and actually with one arm up and the other down, counterbalances with the oposite leg movement gives you the fastest spin, doesn't it? So if you can make a wing into a slight propeller shape on a turn it will be more efficient. * what would be the most efficient proppeller shape – now there is another question? Well. If I am turning right and pull on the right rear riser, I get a propeller shape. If instead, when I want to turn right I pull on the left front riser, then a similar propeller shape occurs. Its the same thing almost, except making the shape with the rear risers is less of a dive, I would think. Maybe that is why in swooping there is more talk of front riser turns, because that would in theory be faster because it adds the dive/power. Take this further * because of what occurred to me about banking causing the outer wing in a turn to turn faster and forward AND the inside wing actuallyy turning less relatively (in a bird hovering, you would see it go back when they turn), then theoretically the fastest and most efficient turn would be (if I turn right) some right rear riser pull eg 1", and more so front left riser pull eg 3". Likewise if I turn left, some left rear riser pull, and more so front right riser pull. Bothe would be adjusted in relation for a slower or faster turn. Ill be trying this out! Thanks for getting me to thing about this. PS aboput my jump numbers. I am not trying to be a swooper. I just love the canopy flyiong part and because of my groundlaunching experience I think I developed my canopy skills quite a bit. That is why at my jump numbers I am interested in canopy flying. Actually I have always had my eye on wing suit flying, but I know my jump numbers are too low. Instead I have just got myself a tracking suit from phoenix fly. It seems I very much like the flying part. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  6. Its turning faster because the wing is more shaped like a propeller when bent with the rear risers rather than a greater edge curve effect caused by breaks - which would slow down the wing more than the propeller shape. That is the advantage that I think exists, so it is a smoother faster turn than using the brakes.
  7. I recently put some video on U-tube called Ground Launching Learning Curve. Type that into U-tube and have a look. I started with some training from Jim slatton then worked it out on a farm even getting some non skydivers to do it on gentle slopes. The video shows the learnign curve ending up with some mountain hill shots and yes even with one of my non skydive mates managing that. Apart from being sensible on the learnign curve - it like skydiving - has even a smaller window. It needs a sope of 40-50% with minimal obstructions g trees and some good landing options. Then it needs the wind between 5 knots and 15 coming up the hill in a stable way. If you are in an area where you can find a hill like that I'd advise it to support your skydiving canopy control and fun in itself. FInding the hill is the hard one. I did it in new Zealand. Now I live in Australia and they just dont have hills here as needed for GL that I can find anyway. Warwick Thorn ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  8. Because I did a lot of ground launching/hill swooping I became confident in steering with my rear risers and now when back to skydiving I do this until my final approach, when i finally use my brakes. I'd be interested in what others think of this. I only have 130 skydive jumps, but about 10 kilometres of groundlaiunching/swooping down hills and mountain slopes. My wing loading on a vengeance is ~1.35 From my point of view it seems a very sensible way to turn because it keeps the speed up and feels really smooth? I read the article on the front page by Brian Germain and think I get the same effect and I do lean in to the turns, as he suggests. The effect is I come in pretty fast it seems, from a few comments. I think this is because when I use the rear risers for turns, it wouldn't slow anything down, would it? It just creates a curve in the overall wing. I do also loosen my chest strap, which helps create a flatter wing. Feels natural and smooth turning the corners. What I do for landing is use the rear risers for my turns and as i come in for my final I let go of the rears at about 50 feet - there is a bit of a drop, which I take is a levelling off of angle of attack. So I am still pretty fast i think at this point because the last turn was at speed - I then just use the brakes for the final levelling off at about 15 feet and adjustment as i skim the ground and shut it down. I havent really seen this approach talked about and have read about the dangers of using rear risers - but as I said i got used to this when groundlaunching plus have tested the stall point - the stall point is way away from the amount of rear riser input I use for my turns. What do you think? ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  9. I trained with my wife at a small DZ but it shut down too and now go to another bigger one. I also visited a big DZ in California and a couple of others in other countries. I had a great experience with the DZ where we trained. We were like a family and we just loved hanging out there. It seems to me like DZs have different cultures. My guess is this has to do with whether an owner is involved in a friendly way or not and whether the key staff are people that make people feel welcome. If they are involved in a friendly way then the DZ will be friendlier, if not then the skygod sindrome may establish as part of the culture and then people like you and me feel out of it. One way in this situation is to have your own little group of friend skydivers and go together to a DZ like that - then you can have fun together anyway. I was disulisioned after my good experience. I thought all skydivers and DZs would be as good. Now I feel that it is a matter of the DZ culture and like all groups of any kind they vary and it makes total okay sense to decide to find a DZ with a friendly inclusive culture because that is where you are going to have the most fun. As with all cultures big is usually less personal. If it is a bid DZ and friendly and welcoming then it is something exceptionally special. It sounds like the DZ you now like is a bit like that. I think your sensitivity is beautiful, because it enables you to feel and appreciate the wonder of skydiving. If I ever got to meet you and jump with you one day it would be an honour and I am sure there are others who will feel the same way. Don't give up, just also work on finding DZs that are good for you - you are doing that
  10. I noticed this on my Wings but thought nothing of it. I am in NZ so if I wanted to get a fix it would be better to get a rigger here to fix it. My rigger would want instructions from Sunrise. Is that the right way to get this safety precaution fix? If so would I send them the pic you included and ask them for an instruction for a rigger to fix it? ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  11. I remember when I did my 1st HopNPop. I asled question son this site so I would know what to expect and then went over and over in my mind, so I would do it right even if I was scared. I think the fear thing comes on more when we do something different for the first time. Our bodies get used to one thing but will scream when we try a new thing for the first time. The solution for me was to train and get myself so ready i would do it right no matter what my nerves are doing. I dont always now but for a long time I did my first jump of the day by myslef, because this got my head into the right space before complicating it by jumping with other people. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  12. I am starting to get interested in swooping and am doing lots of tests up high. I have also done ground launch training with Jim Slatton. Been rerading Brian Germains book too. I have a question about learning attitude, since I notice going too fast at learning to swoop is statistically bad, but what I am wondering is the degree that learning attitude matters. My guess is 80% I had an interesting conversation with a long time jumper and trainer with over 7000 jumps, who thinks many jumpers and trainers don't have the right awareness approach. He went on to say that he goes over emergency procedures for every, solo, tandem and instruction jump so he says he ends up always reacting and is never in a situation where when something goes wrong, he has to say to himself "oh #%$# what do I have to do now - let me remember. He thinks this is "having to think attitude" common and makes many people pretty dangerous, compared to his in the moment preparedness. I liked this and tested it on myself on my last couple of jumps before the jump and on the climb up imagining all sorts of scenarios and checking I had a plan, which I sort of visualised. I noticed my allertness increasing and on jump out felt much more ready. It must be so easy to move out of this way and go to a familiar way that works (already found myself sliding into this mode) but the point of what I have been reading is that our learning curve needs to include anticipation training for every eventuality for the jump we are doing. I talked with a pilot friend too and he agrees it is the same issue for pilots. So my question is how much of an issue is this to the whole learning curve thing. For me it explains why I am doing lots of testing up high and how I should be thinking along with that. It also justifies the 25% of Brian Gernains book dedicated to learning attitude and being in the moment mindset. Interested in comments. I am guessing what Im saying here matters hugely - like 80% ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  13. Are you saying when you do your line check you do each line? That would take a lot of time. I normally, put the sets of lines from each riser separately through my fingers and again with the barake lines. This seems to be enough for packing. But I do do an individual line check after re-rigging (used to be after I rerigged - but now I have learned my lesson, after any rerigging) ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  14. I made this set of rominders for myself during my training. If it helps, good. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.
  15. discovered I had rerigged myself into a line twist. Jumped it twice. A full time rigger reconnected my chute to its risers and then I got my brake lines lengthened and the people who did it reconnected it. But I didn't double check this myself before I jumped it. On packing I found the brake line was twisted around the other lines. I did a canopy check up high, and on looking up it seemed fine. The twist must have been low down so it didn't cause a problem. So the lesson is always double check and rerigging. ANyone else have a situation like this? ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.