Stuck Toggle

[Nightingale 0]

I did practice with them up high, but its hard to be comfortable on a brand new canopy after only four jumps on it.

I'd have landed the spectre 210 I'd been previously jumping with rear risers, I think. I'd had a lot of practice time with that canopy, and felt comfortable with it. My instructors advised me that a 190 would be better for me at this point, and I have taken their advice.

[rigging65 0]

And a 190 is probably a fine canopy for you. It's just a bit of bad luck to have a problem after only 4 jumps on a new canopy size, but it sounds like you handled it fine. Now is as good at time as any to start working with your risers and such up high, especially now that you've gotten a taste of what can happen with that canopy.

Practice ALL of your canopy skills as if your life depends on it...because it might! And keep getting advise from your Instructors, they know you best and will be a great source of information on "higher end" canopy skills. Good luck!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Nightingale 0]

in about a month (when I have spare cash) I'm going to get some canopy coaching.

[rigging65 0]

That's probably one of the best things you can do in the sport today to help stack the odds in your favor. Good for you!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Cornholio 0]

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IMO, if you're not comfortable landing your canopy on rear risers in the event of an emergency (ie- too low to chop) than you are flying the wrong canopy. Period. You don't have the skills and need to be on something bigger...for all of our sakes.

Slightly OT, but... I'm not sure I agree with this. I think that if I wanted to downsize I should be able to land on rear risers under optimal conditions. Frankly, even if I was flying a manta 288, I'd have reservations about landing on rear risers unless I had to (under 1000'.) I fly a spectre 190 loaded around 1.2 and if the ground wind was calm and I was above my hard deck - bye-bye spectre, hello reserve!

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[labrys 0]

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Does the ground become softer because you're a new jumper?

Not what I meant at all. In your reply you mention that we should keep in mind why we are downsizing...

...and that's the exact issue I was trying to address by saying that we are "new skydivers". I am downsizing because I need to cross the line between the 290 student Manta I started with and the 210 Hornet I bought...

I am a new skydiver. I am faced with new experiences every time I jump and I'm downsizing faster than an experienced jumper. I'm downsizing from a "super size it, please" to a canopy that seems like a reasonable wing loading to get experience on.

I really appreciate the time and effort you took to answer. I hope that's clear.

Owned by Remi #?

[crutch 0]

Saying you are downsizing faster than an experienced jumper is true, but there is a diffference. But as a percentage to the size of downsizing, you may be doing something similar. Anyhow, downsizing is all about comfort (both in rig size and performance). Who can argue that a smaller and lighter rig is not more comfortable? But, herein lies the quandry, at what point the the performance increase overstep the level of comfort and confidence one has in the gear? I think Nightingale did the right thing at her level. If she is uncomfortable pulling the slider down (which i do before unstowing the toggles, usaully easier) get the stops put on.

If you ever feel like a canopy is uncontollable at your level of expertise, it is no good, go to the second one, plane and simple. Shouldn't be any question here!

blue skies,

art

[velo90 0]

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Frankly, even if I was flying a manta 288, I'd have reservations about landing on rear risers unless I had to

I'd have no reservations about landing large canopies on rear riser's even in non-optimal conditions. I only have small reservations about landing my small canopy in rears only.

I believe the original statements holds.

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if you're not comfortable landing your canopy on rear risers in the event of an emergency then you are flying the wrong canopy

But of course, when you are on a Manta 288, that's when to start learning this skill.

[rigging65 0]

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I'd have reservations about landing on rear risers unless I had to (under 1000'.)

As was said much earlier on in this thread, it's never a good idea to put yourself at risk if you don't need to. I won't get into the arguments about what's "safer" (living through a reserve deployment or landing a canopy without a steering line), but if you have the time, at least you'll have the option. That was never the point.

The point was, you should be comfortable with your canopy to the point of being able to land it on rear-risers IF YOU HAD TO. If you go back and re-read the post, you'll see that.

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I'd have reservations about landing on rear risers unless I had to (under 1000'.)

But you'd be OK with it if you had to, yes? If not, than you certainly need to work on it. This may (or may not) be a qualification (for you personally) before you downsize...IMO, it should be...but its at least something you need to have thought about and practiced.

The way I look at it is like driving a car (for the sake of this discussion, please assume we all drive manual transmissions). If you drove a manual trani and never learned any other way to slow down than to use the breaks, you'd be a fool. Yes? You have another tool at your disposal, you can downshift. Seems like a silly thing, right? Of course you downshift if you have a manual trani, duh! So what's different here? Why shouldn't learning rear-riser landings be thought of the same way? Only using your toggles to fly is like only using your steering wheel (and not the peddles) to drive...you wouldn't do that in your car, so why do it under canopy?

This sport IS NOT SAFE. One way that you can help stack the odds in your favor and manage the risk better is to have more tools in your tool bag. If you're a newbie lurking this thread, please take this to heart: Learn how to fly ALL the controls on your canopy, and do it as soon as you can. You never know when you're going to run into a problem...it might only be 4 jumps after you've switched canopies, so start early! It'll save your life (or at least your legs) some day!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[CrazyJulie 0]

What would be the pros/cons to having slider stops and what are the pros/cons to not having them? I'm uncertain at this point if I should have my rigger install them or not. I am having him tack down my slinks after reading, a couple of months back, of a death where the slinks may have been a contributing factor. Any info would be most appreciated
CJ

Peace, Love, and Good Happiness Stuff

[payback462 0]

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'm uncertain at this point if I should have my rigger install them or not

well its simple,
Do you pull your slider down behind your head??
if yes then you probably dont need them
if no, then yes get them installed.

slink stoppers are a very good thing, besides the whole preventing stuck toggles, it also elminates the need to tack the slinks down since now theyre stuck under the stops anyway.
(personally i think tacking the slinks down is dumb, it pretty much negates the whole idea behind slinks, and if the slinks were cared for as per instructions, wouldnt even be needed)
Edited to add: thats not to say that i think people should just let them hang out of the riser and not do anything about them, just saying that tacking them down is a coverup fix (the real fix being taking it off and working it a little then putting it back on)

[tbrown 26]

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Groundzero won't allow anything to be added to the rig until I pay it off (probably Feb 7th), but I will most probably take you up on that! That stuck toggle was SCARY. I don't want it happening again.

You're just lucky you had the problem at 3000 ft and not 300, or you might've made the Incidents page. I'd tell your dealer loud and clear that this is a safety concern. Or maybe to be more diplomatic, I'd talk to the S&TA about it first and enlist their aid, because you need to do this.

Pulling your slider down should be a choice and not a necessity. Especially at your experience level.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[sdctlc 0]

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Groundzero won't allow anything to be added to the rig until I pay it off (probably Feb 7th)

I would be shocked if you were not allowed to add slink bumpers to the rig.... Given you had a problem as it is and by adding them it reduces the chance of this problem happening again. Besides that it is not like it is a huge modification here, it is easy and non-envasive to the rig..

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[Nightingale 0]

at this point it isn't that big a deal, because I'll be paying off the balance next saturday, and it'll be mine anyway.

[mjosparky 3]

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at this point it isn't that big a deal, because I'll be paying off the balance next saturday, and it'll be mine anyway.

Kris,
My offer stands, you get the bumpers and I will install them. I have them on both my rigs and think they are a good add. If there is a problem with Groundzero, I will be glad to talk to them.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rigging65 0]

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am having him tack down my slinks after reading, a couple of months back, of a death where the slinks may have been a contributing factor.

See, here's the thing...why do you even have soft links on your rig? The major advantage is that they reduce the bulk at the top of your risers and let you slip your slider over more easily, right? So if you aren't using them that way, then why have them...especially if you think they might cause you other problems. Are soft links stronger than regular links? Depends on what size hard links you have and what you make your soft links out of. Do soft links require more maintenance? Yes? Are soft links of any real benefit if you don't pull your slider down? Not really!!



Not picking on ANYONE in particular with this (so don't even try to take it that way), but there are sooo many people who just get new stuff on their rig because that's what's new and cool that week. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE EVERY BELL AND WHISTLE AVAILABLE!!!

If you don't know why you have something on your rig that everyone else doesn't have, ASK SOMEONE!!

There was nothing wrong with the way risers were set up 5 years ago, but now (since PD found a cheaper way to for them to hook your canopy up to your risers) everyone has to get soft links! We've even gone so far as to make "stops" for your soft links so that you can't pull the slider down so easily. Christ people, there's nothing wrong with a set of #5 links and plastic bumpers! They're simple, straight forward and basically maintenance free. If you don't have any need for the fancier stuff, why have it?!?

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Nightingale 0]

personally, I have them because they came with my rig.

[Nightingale 0]

On saturday, the rig will be mine, and I will have the slider stops with me.

[mjosparky 3]

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On saturday, the rig will be mine, and I will have the slider stops with me.

I am going to try and make it down late saturday, but if not I will be there sunday. If you wait that long we will do it. Of course it will cost you a cold one.(soda or beer)
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[CrazyJulie 0]

Ryan -
I purchased my rig "used" therefore I did not specifically ask for everything it is equipped with, so you can just exclude me from the group that must have all the "bells and whistles". I'm just trying to figure out the best things to do to it for myself. I simply want to know the pros/cons to having slider stops. There must be very valid arguments for and against them, otherwise every rig would be equipped the same. I want to make an informed decision on what I should do with mine.
Thank you
Julie

Peace, Love, and Good Happiness Stuff

[TimDave 0]

A bit off topic...

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(personally i think tacking the slinks down is dumb, it pretty much negates the whole idea behind slinks, and if the slinks were cared for as per instructions, wouldnt even be needed)

How does tacking the slink down prevent reduced damage to the slider grommets, reduce the life span of the supspension line and make it harder to pull the slider down over the slider and toggles?

I have them on my main and even though I follw the PD recommended maintenance instructions, the tab keeps finding a way to the outside (even after 200+ jumps).

[payback462 0]

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w does tacking the slink down prevent reduced damage to the slider grommets, reduce the life span of the supspension line and make it harder to pull the slider down over the slider and toggles?

I have them on my main and even though I follw the PD recommended maintenance instructions, the tab keeps finding a way to the outside (even after 200+ jumps).

sorry, i should have clarified myself there, what i meant was it defeats the purpouse of the ease of removal and installation all soft links have the qualities stated above, but the PD ones really shine because they are the easiest for removal/installation.
whoops

[rigging65 0]

Julie-

It's not my intent to pick on you with this, so please don't take it that way...BUT...you bought the rig as-is. With that said, you do have the option not to have them as part of your system. IMO, and only IMO, it is irresponsible for anyone to jump gear that they aren't confident in (ie- they are confident in the bits that make up the system, and they are confident in how those bits function.)

If you don't know why something is the way it is, I would hope you would ask a RIGGER first (you know, the guys who are supposed to know about all this stuff). Asking the readers/posters on this group is fine, but you're likely to get a variety of answers and you pretty much have no way to validate them.

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There must be very valid arguments for and against them, otherwise every rig would be equipped the same.

This couldn't be further from the truth. One thing everyone learns about skiydiving at one point or another is that there are a whole bunch of ways to do things...some are better than others...but many get used. Some people are uninformed, some people choose to take certain risks for certain rewards, and some people just really need to look cool (don't laugh, it's more common than you think! )

It's great that you're looking for information, please keep doing that! But be sure you're seeking it from valid one-on-one sources as well as from the group (which I'm sure that you are).

Your gear is your gear. It doesn't matter if it's new or used, you're the owner. The "bits" that are on there are there by your choice. If you don't want the extra bells and whistles, take them off...until you do, it's the same as choosing to have them put on.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."