My summer is shot. :(

[argon 0]

Did a bunch of static line and hop and pops 20 years ago.Took a long break,now I have the time and at least enough money to jump. In april I made a Tandem jump on a "windy" day. Jump was fantastic,great time during freefall, nice opening and canopy ride. The tandem master "handled" the landing. Result: able to walk away(barely). Fractured tailbone and 30%+ compression fracture L-1. Bone still not healed. Next time I think I want to do AFF.

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Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[pccoder 0]

Sorry to hear that.

On a different note, if you haven't been jumping since 20 years ago it is misleading for your profile to say "21 years in sport"

PcCoder.net

[Brian425 0]

Don't worry, you will heal. I just got my A license and broke my pinky playing Volleyball. Don't give up. It's just a setback.

I had a tough time getting my A with the weather and now the hand. It was worth it.

Don't give up, you'll miss out on too many good friends.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[argon 0]

23 years as a pilot,around aviation since childhood-I've been a member of USPA for 15 years,other jobs,serious medical problems all have resulted in not being able to do what I really wanted to do-jump. Never meant to mislead anyone and certaintly don't offer ANY advice. One thing is for sure-things were alot different of my first jump then they are now. All I know is I NEVER hit the ground as hard as I did in April--and that was under surplus round T10 canopies and I was doing the steering. Just remember enjoy it while you can. Shit happens.There may be a day when you can't jump anymore but you'll still may want to follow the sport and even participate in a different way--does that mean you still can't say you are involved?Believe me,the time was there,the money was there and I had a goal to get at least my A license. I see you made about 100 jumps in 1 year-be glad you are healthy enough to do it.

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[pccoder 0]

That makes sense. Sounds like you just had a really shitty experience on a tandem jump. Sorry again to hear about it. Also, very sorry to hear that you've been on the sidelines wanting to be jumping and not being able. I don't even want to imagine how that feels.

PcCoder.net

[FrogNog 1]

Yeah, I hear the T-10s land pretty soft. I thought all rounds landed hard and fast, but I guess there's a bunch of variation.

Sorry you busted your butt. I hope you get better.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[tonyhays 86]

How "windy" was it???

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[argon 0]

I was told 17 gusting to 22. Typical blustery New York spring day. I've got 1500+ hours in alot of complex aircraft-I'm not a canopy pilot and was NOT flying the canopy but was holding the toggles waiting for the tandem masters commands. He never said anything-- when we turned final we had very little penetration into the wind toward the target.Kinda hovering over the peas,I was looking forward and not toward the ground. The wind was very gusty in the pattern. I was told we just dropped in with very little at all of a flair. I hit heels first,then my ass at that time the tandem master mashed me flat with his stomach and chest to put it mildly.After about 15 minutes,ambulance dudes etc- I chose to stand up-probably not too smart but shit happens. I learned alot though. No animosity toward the tandem master though-just disappointed that the bone isn't healed and time is the only cure-you just don't realize how fuckin' hard that ground is until yu hit it too fast...oooppps 1130-time for a pill....

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm sorry about your injury. I too hurt myself last Saturday (not seriously) when I purposely downwinded a landing through the swoop course in 7-8 mph winds. I ran out my the landing and never crashed, but the force on my right foot when I first touched down was strong enough to cause some sort of damage and I may miss jumping this weekend.

Anyway ... I digress ...

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I was told we just dropped in with very little at all of a flair.

If you can believe this, the tandem master did the right thing. When jumping in high winds, the normal flare techniques are not needed. Usually the first portion of the flare is used to arrest the horizontal aspect of landing and the second part of the flare is used to arrest the vertical descent. So in high winds, there is little to no horizontal penetration and that part of the flare should be omited. The risks we take when doing a full flare in high winds is that our bodies can be located forward of the center of gravity and the canopy is then trailing us and the results are than we are slammed to the ground on our backs. I'm not sure if I explained this the best way, but just know that the normal full flare when jumping in high winds is not the thing to do. As to what exactly the TM did with his flare is hard to know as I and the rest of us here on DZ.COM didn't see it.

Best of luck with your healing process. The worst part for me is knowing that I shouldn't be jumping anytime soon, but I want to jump now. But I'm old enough and hopefully will use good judgement this weekend. Like jumping my Spectre in moderate winds instead of my Crossfire2 and shooting accuracy landings instead of swooping. Or better yet, just not jumping. Maybe MotherNature will save me by raining on us this coming weekend.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Yeah, I hear the T-10s land pretty soft. I thought all rounds landed hard and fast, but I guess there's a bunch of variation.

Sorry you busted your butt. I hope you get better.

You heard wrong. They land softer than a cheapo, but I'll still never give up square canopies for one of those again.

[jerm 0]

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Usually the first portion of the flare is used to arrest the horizontal aspect of landing and the second part of the flare is used to arrest the vertical descent.

funny... when i start to flare my stop vertically but still ahve horizontal speed.. when i continue my flare that's when the horizontal speed is abated..

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Quote

Usually the first portion of the flare is used to arrest the horizontal aspect of landing and the second part of the flare is used to arrest the vertical descent.

funny... when i start to flare my stop vertically but still ahve horizontal speed.. when i continue my flare that's when the horizontal speed is abated..

You know on the surface this appears to be the case. But one needs to look outside of the box to see what's really happening.

Here's a quote from SkymonkeyOne (found in this thread) concerning the flare "Phase one levels the canopy out and is used to scrub off speed. Phase two stops the canopy without having it climb back up into the air higher than you can step out of.".

Phase one is scrubbing off of speed (the horizontal aspect) and phase two is so that you can step down (the vertical aspect). Since we don't need to worry about scrubbing off horizontal speed in high winds, we only need to worry about flaring for the vertical aspect. Hey I didn't invent this stuff and it did sound fishy to me when I first was told about it as well. But it makes sense when you really think about it (well it does to me and I'm assuming SkymonkeyOne a PST competitor still feels this way).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[argon 0]

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Quote

Usually the first portion of the flare is used to arrest the horizontal aspect of landing and the second part of the flare is used to arrest the vertical descent.

funny... when i start to flare my stop vertically but still ahve horizontal speed.. when i continue my flare that's when the horizontal speed is abated..

I have a question for experienced canopy pilots. After flying a downwind,left turn onto base and another left turn onto final-which was a very gently flat toggle turn-now heading into a very gusty wind is it safer to fly the canopy with some brakes or would it be prudent to allow the toggles up and try to get some forward drive? Would this forward speed be able to be converted to lift and make the final flare more effective arresting the vertical descent. I remember distinctly being in about half brakes with little forward drive-no flare whatsoever and a very sudden drop? This is something that I would prefer to avoid when the decisions are mine. All I know in airplane terms there are times you don't want to be low and slow.

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Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[par 0]

I guess, usually you should let all the toggles up about 3-5 seconds before flaring to gain power in your wing. Going to the ground in brakes usually is needed only when u are sure u will hit some obstacles and you need the slowest speed to think about landing and find the best of the worst, or in accuracy tournaments

• Quote

[jerm 0]

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You know on the surface this appears to be the case. But one needs to look outside of the box to see what's really happening.

Here's a quote from SkymonkeyOne (found in this thread) concerning the flare "Phase one levels the canopy out and is used to scrub off speed. Phase two stops the canopy without having it climb back up into the air higher than you can step out of.".

dude.... read what you just wrote, i've highlighted it above "phase one levels the canopy out", well the canopy won't be leveled out with any vertical speed left, therefore phase one arrests vertical speed.

further:

Quote

"Phase two stops the canopy "

if the canopy is leveld out, and has no vertical speed, thenthe only thing left is horizontal speed, if there's a llot of this we call it a swoop. We use the last part of the flare to keep the increased andgle-of-attack in order to KEEP the vertical componant at zero until we've bled off enough speed to put our feet down.

Now... this CAN be different in high winds... a little brake can slow the flight of the canopy enough to stop groundspeed at first.. then finish the flare to stop vertical speed, but that's a groundspeed vs airspeed issue. and perhaps that's where the confusion is. In which case your original post was more correct, for that situation, then i originally posed at

however, Skymoney's quote still supports my argment


in case anyone else is still confused by this, in anything but high winds, think of it this way.. if phase one didn't stop the vertical speed, you'd crash into the ground before you got to the second phase.

if you arrest the horizontal speed first, then you have no speed and therefore no lift and cannot arrest the vertical speed.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[argon 0]

in case anyone else is still confused by this, in anything but high winds, think of it this way.. if
if you arrest the horizontal speed first, then you have no speed and therefore no lift and cannot arrest the vertical speed.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

How did I get myself mixed up in a debate concerning the landing flare? I mean after all I was just trying to make a comment to Argon (who started this thread) and I wanted to let him know that in high winds the normal flare is not needed and then I go on to explain one version of why this is. But instead of reading the entire content of that paragraph, Jerm decided to focus in on a specific set of words in order to try and discredit the reply, and to paint a picture of ... shit I don't know what he was trying to do?

Well what's done is done and I guess I now find myself in situation I didn't ask for. But I'm sorry I choose not to look at flight in a black and white context as some of us canopy pilots actually choose to let our canopy's nature recovery arc help plain us out above the ground (instead of using our toggles) and then we use the first phase of our flair to help us deal with our horizontal glide across the ground. Ask any competent and experienced high performance canopy pilot and they will tell you that it is much better, much safer and much more efficient method to have the canopy use its natural recover arc to plain out above the ground instead of using one's toggles.

Now am I wrong to manipulate some words out side of the context of the message Jerm was trying to get across to prove my point? Absolutely, I was wrong!!! For all we know, Jerm is a competent canopy pilot who is aware of the benefits of using the canopy's natural recovery arc to plain out and who knows, maybe he's actually good at doing it. Plus my arguments of the recovery arc typically just apply to high performance canopy flight. So you can see how someone can manipulate words to make someone else look bad. So if I am wrong attempting to make Jerm look bad because he's saying we use our toggles to plain out the canopy, why is it that it is okay for him to manipulate some words outside the context of the message I was trying to say to Argon?

I don't know, maybe when I make another 800+ jumps, then I will see the black and white visions of flight that Jerm seems to insist on portraying to the rest of us. But I doubt it, as my experience as a licensed pilot, a skydiver and a new BASE jumper, I choose to look at flight as a dynamic entity and I choose to look outside of the box.

To Argon:

I'm sorry you got hurt and I'm sorry we've hiijacked your thread and not really answered all of the questions you asked. I wanted to let someone else answer your question:

"After flying a downwind, left turn onto base and another left turn onto final-which was a very gently flat toggle turn-now heading into a very gusty wind is it safer to fly the canopy with some brakes or would it be prudent to allow the toggles up and try to get some forward drive? Would this forward speed be able to be converted to lift and make the final flare more effective arresting the vertical descent?"

as I know there are many more knowledgable people out there and I didn't want to come across as a know it all. But personally I think you already know the answer.

When flying in high winds it is best to try and generate as much forward speed as possible in order to generate enough lift close to the ground. So if your TM was in 1/2 brakes low to the ground in high winds only because he was trying to hit the peas, then he was wrong. I have zero experience flying tandem canopies, but I know with my 293 BASE canopy, I am not at all worried about being in deep brakes close to the ground in low to moderate winds as BASE canopies are designed to be able to sink it in (plus the fact that my canopy has vents which help keeps the canopy pressurized while I'm in deep brakes). But dare we do this low to the ground with your typical skydiving canopy.

So in summary, let's try to remember to treat each other as we wish to be treated ourselves. Manipulating words to makes oneself look good while discrediting others has no purpose here.

Peace out people ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[argon 0]

Sorry my thread got a little out of hand but believe me,I really do learn alot here. Compared to most of you I have no experience-flying parachutes. But I do have alot of flying time in alot of airplanes with very high wing loadings. Obviously the option to "go around" is not there when your approach has gone to shit under canopy ! But I think I have alittle more insight on the concept than my experience level would suggest without knowing my background.--Its NO shit, I watch you guys under high wing loading with absolute awe. To me it is some bigtime crazy,high skill shit. But to be honest I didn't really expect to get so fucked up on a tandem jump. I look at it as a good thing because I think alot of people think they can't get hurt doing tandems or jumping student gear.But to be honest in this case I had a feeling things were going to end up the way they did and I had no power whatsover to change the result. I appreciate the opinions-I want to learn as much as I can from enayone who is willing to help.

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Compared to most of you I have no experience-flying parachutes. But I do have alot of flying time in alot of airplanes with very high wing loadings.

Hey Argon I did take notice of your 23 years and 1500+ hours as a pilot and believe me this means a lot in terms of what we can talk to you about with flight. In fact I'm sure I have a lot to learn from you concerning flying airplanes as my experience in flying is peanuts compared to yours (I've only got 170 hours). It's just that in the last two years I've decided to put my flying on hold and to concentrate on skydiving while I'm still young enough to do it. But believe me when I first started to jump, I said "there's no way I'm going to swoop". But that was then and this is now.

Rest up, heal fast and hopefully you'll be in the skies with us (especially under canopy) before you know it. Plus I have every reason to believe that you will be a good safe canopy pilot what with your years of flying experience.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jerm 0]

and also felt the need to further belabor the point on which jerm already admitted he mis-thought his original reply based on the circumstances.

so tthppppttt!!!

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time