Keeping one's mouth shut...

[Ron 7]

Quote

Because I'm not a complete idiot

Did I say you were a complete idiot????? Did I miss that?

Quote

It kills me when people on this board assume your knowledge level based on your number of jumps.

Well I would be willing to bet that a guy with 100 jumps knows more about skydiving than a guy with one. Or a guy with an instructors rating knows more thana guy with 50 jumps and no rating....I may not be right 100% of the time...But I would be willing to bet I would be right 99% of the time.

Quote

Or I could have LISTENED to my instructors and be parroting the advice they've given me.

So instead of giving advice that you know to be correct you would just parrot that advice? What if you really don't understand the question and give the wrong advice? Why would you give advice if you don't know how to do it, and just repeat it like a damn brainless bird?

Quote

It's also part of the social aspect of skydiving - if every time you go talk to another skydiver they say "I don't know, why don't you go ask your instructor" what kind of impression of other people there are YOU going to get?

With that approach your right...But how about this one:

Hey how do you do this?

"Why don't we find an instructor to help you out...I would not want to give you information that might be wrong"

Quote

It kills me when people on this board assume your knowledge level based on your number of jumps

It kills me that some guy that has done 50 jumps now thinks he knows enough to teach it...What kind of stupidity is that? I still think you are going to bounce till you have 100 jumps.

Simple...you don't have the ratings don't give "advice". Hell I have been teaching since 1995 and I don't teach other peoples students....I guess you know more than me huh?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[elfanie 0]

Quote

Quote

Because I'm not a complete idiot

Did I say you were a complete idiot????? Did I miss that?

He was responding to this..

Quote

Why not just keep your mouth shut and direct them to someone qualified to teach them?

His response of "Because I'm not a complete idiot" probably means "Because even though you don't think that I have anything at all of value to share...I actually do have a brain and have used said brain to learn from others around me and learn from what experiences that I have..."

He didn't say, "You called me an idiot." More like, "don't talk to me as if I'm an idiot.."

Quote

Quote

It kills me when people on this board assume your knowledge level based on your number of jumps.

Well I would be willing to bet that a guy with 100 jumps knows more about skydiving than a guy with one. Or a guy with an instructors rating knows more thana guy with 50 jumps and no rating....I may not be right 100% of the time...But I would be willing to bet I would be right 99% of the time.

What difference does it make?

Do you have to know EVERYTHING before you know ANYTHING??

On a thread of mine which I was getting opinions about a hard landing of mine, I made a post that said, "lessons learned..."
included things like, "Always be prepared to PLF..." "watch for traffic", etc.
Ok...that's all fine and dandy, right? heaven forbid I say that to a student..
(at least until I have a rating...)

Quote

Quote

Or I could have LISTENED to my instructors and be parroting the advice they've given me.

So instead of giving advice that you know to be correct you would just parrot that advice?

Unless you've experienced EVERYTHING...then I guarentee you are parroting as well. Parroting what you've read...what you've been told...

Quote

What if you really don't understand the question and give the wrong advice?

(same thing to be said to instructors.)

Quote

Hey how do you do this?

"Why don't we find an instructor to help you out...I would not want to give you information that might be wrong"

How about this one...

"What did you do when you went through AFF?"

"I got so unstable on my AFF 8...diving exit? I flipped over onto my back, looked at the plane, JM, and cameraguy, and thought, 'this isn't right!' I arched, it flipped me right back over, and I continued the jump...it was a blast..."

Quote

Quote

It kills me when people on this board assume your knowledge level based on your number of jumps

It kills me that some guy that has done 50 jumps now thinks he knows enough to teach it...

Where did he say that he knows enough to teach it???? Did I miss that?

he said that he has learned some things...I don't think he ever claimed he was an instructor or qualified to teach AFF classes.

Quote

Simple...you don't have the ratings don't give "advice". Hell I have been teaching since 1995 and I don't teach other peoples students....I guess you know more than me huh?

Oh bologna...you do too. You give advice on this board all of the time to people you've never even met...
Oh sure..you end it with, "talk to your instructor"...but he probably does, too...

to say you don't give advice to other people's stupid isn't true...you do it here...all the time..

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Simple...you don't have the ratings don't give "advice". Hell I have been teaching since 1995 and I don't teach other peoples students....I guess you know more than me huh?

I don't think it's so cut and dry. I'm a 32 jump know-nothing and have given 2 pieces of advice to the other students I talk to: keep your friggen hands in when you PLF and if you're on AFF buy the damn video. The hands in stuff I say because I've not done it too many times and hurt myself and the video I think really pays for itself when you're on AFF. It's only like 30 bucks and it shows you exactly what you're doing wrong on a jump.

But on the flip side of that, I was riding with a friend who was just post AFF like me. Got to see him exit(I was after him), it was uncontrolled and he was bitching about it on the ground. Personally, I kind of thought it was just because he was too rigid. He looked tense and sort of fell like a board.

But when he asked me about how it looked, I didn't say that, I just said something like "I saw it was unstable, but I didn't really know what I was looking at so I don't know why", because I really don't know enough to be sure why.

If I drove up to ZHills to get some coaching from some other guy, saw you at the DZ and asked you why I potato chip after 3 or 4 seconds when I track, I'd hate for you to shut me down with a "better ask your coach that". I'm not looking for the "pefect correct" answer from you, just different answers from different people who have that sort of experience.

[Ron 7]

Quote

But on the flip side of that, I was riding with a friend who was just post AFF like me. Got to see him exit(I was after him), it was uncontrolled and he was bitching about it on the ground. Personally, I kind of thought it was just because he was too rigid. He looked tense and sort of fell like a board.

So you kept your mouth shut right? Good job. Some don't.

Quote

I don't think it's so cut and dry. I'm a 32 jump know-nothing and have given 2 pieces of advice to the other students I talk to: keep your friggen hands in when you PLF

Which is taught in every course I have ever seen. You didn't teach this....They didn't come to you and ask you a question...About HOW to do a PLF. If they did I would hope you would send them to an Instructor.

Quote

If I drove up to ZHills to get some coaching from some other guy, saw you at the DZ and asked you why I potato chip after 3 or 4 seconds when I track, I'd hate for you to shut me down with a "better ask your coach that".

Why? You have a coach for that reason. He is working with you. You may not even have that problem...you might just THINK you do...He would KNOW if you do.

I was coaching a guy..I told him he needed to arch some...He told me he was. I told him he was not...He swore he was. Still he didn't. I had to jump a video camera and SHOW him that he was not arching...He said he was until he saw he was not. He was almost violent about how strongly he was arching...But only after I showed him he was not did he realize he was not.

If you were my student, or getting coaching from me...I don't want others trying to help me help you. They have no idea what I saw on the last jump, and no idea what I am trying to fix.

What if they start trying to teach you the mantis position, but you are not stable enough for it yet? It just hurts you and makes my life hard.

If you were there getting coaching...I would keep my mouth shut out of respect to that coach, and not to confuse you.

I am sure I don't teach the same as every other coach out there.

And if you are not my student....I don't feel the need to put my two cents in unless you are doing something that could kill you.....In fact If I was doing something really stupid...I would hope you would ask me about it.

BTW there is a 4 way scrambles up here in March...You should come up. There will be coaches jumping with each group for the day with video.

More Here

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dmbale 0]

There are two statements that I tell newer jumpers and they were told to me by my instructors.

If you screw up your dive flow but pull, at the right altitude and stable. Then you land well enough and make it back to the hangar. The worst thing that happened is that you have to do that jump again.

Remember that this is pure decadence, have fun.

On the C license skygod.....I have gotten to the point where I don't want to talk about skydiving to my brother-in-law. If I try to talk through something that happens at the DZ to him, I end up getting lectured. I have instructors who don't even do that to me. He also doesn't understand that I jump at a high altitude DZ which makes a few things a bit different from his experiences.

[davelepka 4]

Not really replying to Ron, just adding to the thread,

Keep in mind that even if you are repeating advice you have heard, if the situaiotn is the slightest bit different, the advice may be incorrect. What works for one canopy may be the worst possible move on another. What may be a good idea on one day, in one set of weather conditions may not work in another. Unless you have jumped both canopies, in all different types of weather, you would not know this This is where expereince comes into play.

Newbies, don't get all worked up if more experienced people say that xxx number jumps means you don't know what you're talking about. Nobody is trying to downplay your knowledge, and classify you as an idiot. It's just a basic truth you will come to understand as your numbers come up. You may be the brightest 100 jump wonder around, but you still lack the fundamental experience of jump numbers. Don't complain about it, just jump more, and make the problem go away.

One last point, giving incorrect advice can lead to injury or death. Before speaking up with advice, ask yourself how you would feel if your advice led to an incident. One more than one occasion, I have intevened in just such a situation. There are severe consequenses for making mistakes in this sport, thats why we have rated instructors, and cranky old-timers to keep everyone in line. If you want to grow up to be one of them, keep your mouth shut, and your ears cautiously open.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't think it's so cut and dry. I'm a 32 jump know-nothing and have given 2 pieces of advice to the other students I talk to: keep your friggen hands in when you PLF

Which is taught in every course I have ever seen. You didn't teach this....They didn't come to you and ask you a question...About HOW to do a PLF. If they did I would hope you would send them to an Instructor.

I was going to automatically say no(edit: no I wouldn't show them), but then I thought hard about a situation where I might. Say someone came from someplace else, had their equivilant of an A license but didn't know what a PLF was, then I might do a quick demo of one for them.

Maybe this is a flaw in my thinking, but I guess what I'm trying to get across is I have sort of a mental filter between what I think I know and the person I'm talking to. The more experienced the person I'm talking to, the less of what I think I know I'd filter because I'd expect them to have their own filters in place, to already be in the 'I should know this' zone of what we're talking about.

An example with the same guy in my prior post with the exit issue that I didn't give advice on. One other jump he was talking about when he went to pull at his deployment altitude he ended up in a spin as he reached for the handle. So he stopped, ended the spin, then deployed, but obviously went below his deployment altitude. So I asked him why didn't he just pull, it was his pull altitude even though he was spinning. I didn't say he should have(because we're at the same experience level, so I have little business telling him what to do), I just asked why he didn't to make him think about it.

The priorities are: Pull, Pull at altitude, pull with stability, right? I wouldn't ever say what I said to a AFF student, but my "filter" for that situation was to go ahead and ask that question to him because pulling at altitude decisions are something he should know.

Was that a bad way to handle the situation?

Quote

BTW there is a 4 way scrambles up here in March...You should come up. There will be coaches jumping with each group for the day with video.

I'd love to, could definately use any RW experience, but I doubt I'll have my A by March 7th and I think I need that before I can start jumping with non-coaches. When I get my A I'll do some hops around the other DZs down here. I figure visiting DZs up near Orlando would be a cool way to get away from home for the weekend now and then. It was one of the appeals of the sport.

[The111 0]

Ron, I'm curious about your take on this.

MarkM mentioned in a previous post that one piece of advice he felt ok to give/discuss was, for example, a "big" guy asking a fellow big guy how he learned to fall slower. You didn't really comment on that.

Let me set up a hypothetical situation. Two jumpers, both with 50 jumps. Both have A licenses, i.e. they are qualified to jump on their own and make their own decisions. Both are adults who understand the risks of the sport, and understand that the "best" advice comes from instructors. If they want to talk and share experiences, they are both aware of what they're doing. So, both guys are big guys. The other day they tried to do a 4-way with two small guys. Let's call the two big guys Al and Dave. Al is able to stay up with the small guys and make a perfect 3 way round. Dave simply cannot figure out how to fall as slow as Al, though they are both the same weight and build. On the ground, Dave asks Al, "how were you able to overcome the difficulties I'm having now?"

What is the risk you see with Al telling Dave how he figured it out? This is NOT the same as a 50 jump wonder telling an AFF student how to exit a plane, stay stable in freefall, deploy, fly, or land a parachute. Once you're at the point where you're stable in freefall, have some degree of control, and can make choices on what caliber of jumps you're ready for (i.e. 4-way RW), what is the harm in discussing freefall techniques?

Sure, both parties may be inexperienced and not know all the answers. Sure, the tried and true answers may be easily found through a 2000 jump coach. But I can think of two reasons it may actually be BETTER (or more satisfactory in a human sense), for Dave to ask his buddy Al.

1) People who have just learned something often have a fresher perspective as to how hard it was to learn that thing. This is why college professors who have been teaching for years often lose touch with their students. I TA (teacher assisted) a class for an ancient out of touch professor in college. I taught all of his labs for him, I was only 20 and had just taken the class myself, but all of the students, some of them 5-10 years older than me, came to me for advice rather than him. In the large scale, he probably understood the subject matter better than me, but on the small scale, I could relate better to the students on what it was like to learn it for the first time. I realize the different between college and skydiving. But I have shown that I don't see body position in freefall (once all other safety skills have been learned) as a critical safety issue in the sport. And I have shown why I think Al might be able to explain something (non-safety-critical) to Dave better than the 2000 jump coach can. Even if 2000 jump coach has trained 50 big guys to fall slow, he may be a skinny guy and never faced that challenge himself, and also not have the fresh perspective of a new jumper.

2) It's human nature to explore. To try to learn things first hand, empirically. Again, I understand this is not always the best approach in skydiving. Learning to operate a parachute is best done through careful instruction rather than personal experimentation. But again, once you've established the safety skills to be allowed to jump on your own and make decisions about what type of jump you're going to make, and who you're going to jump with, what's to stop you from learning different methods of human flight on your own? Obviously you need to understand basic principles of the type of flying you plan to attempt, especially if you're at a big plane DZ. You don't want to exit 5 seconds after a 4 way RW team and spend the whole jump blindly flailing about, unaware of heading, trying your damndest to stick a stable head down position. But it's totally acceptable to make a belly jump with one other guy, and see what happens if you drop this elbow, pull this knee in, etc. Sure, the answers may be out there already, but it's an enjoyable part of being human to be able to learn these things on our own! And if two inexperienced RW flyers (but licensed jumpers) make a jump together and are both trying new small adjustments to their body position, and want to discuss after the jump what they thought was happening, what's the harm?

If someone with 50 jumps asks me how to track, I'm not going to blow them off. I'm going to be honest with them. "I only have 180 jumps and I'm still figuring it out myself. I've tried several different things and here's what they are. Maybe you should get on a tracking dive and see how you perform in a small group." Someone with 2000 jumps may see me talking to the 50 jump guy and laugh at me. But you know what? I could care less. I've actually asked several jumpers with over 5000 jumps on the best way to track slow and flat (flattest glide), and I've got slightly different answers from ALL of them. There were some similarities, but all of them had a slightly different opinion about foot, arm, or hand position. Aerodynamics is not an analytical science. It's experimental. What's wrong with two low time jumpers discussing what they think works best for them in a track? Sure, if they were to get on a 30 way the next day and try the other guy's advice to breakoff and got no separation, that would be bad. But the bad decision was not having a discussion about tracking with a fellow newbie. It was getting on a 30 way before knowing for sure (by doing smaller and progessively larger jumps) that you had adequate tracking skills to do a 30 way.

I would never offer an AFF student, or probably any unlicensed jumper advice about anything. But I do think there are cases where it's different. As I said, if someone with 50 jumps asked me how I did turns in freefall, or how I managed my first dock on my belly, I would not mind answering, as long as they understood my experience level. I would also mention that they might get better answers from a coach.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Ron 7]

Quote

I was going to automatically say no(edit: no I wouldn't show them), but then I thought hard about a situation where I might. Say someone came from someplace else, had their equivilant of an A license but didn't know what a PLF was, then I might do a quick demo of one for them.

But do you think you could teach it as well as an instructor?

Quote

So I asked him why didn't he just pull, it was his pull altitude even though he was spinning. I didn't say he should have(because we're at the same experience level, so I have little business telling him what to do), I just asked why he didn't to make him think about it.

The priorities are: Pull, Pull at altitude, pull with stability, right? I wouldn't ever say what I said to a AFF student, but my "filter" for that situation was to go ahead and ask that question to him because pulling at altitude decisions are something he should know.

Was that a bad way to handle the situation?

Again you didn't try to teach him how not to spin on deployment....I can think of about 4 things right now that could cause that to happen....I don't know which he did...So I would have to cover them all....You migh only know 1 or 2...And they may not be the issue. You could cause more issues with the fix than you help.

You handled it pretty good....We all have to remember to pull before the dirt.

Quote

I'd love to, could definately use any RW experience, but I doubt I'll have my A by March 7th and I think I need that before I can start jumping with non-coaches. When I get my A I'll do some hops around the other DZs down here. I figure visiting DZs up near Orlando would be a cool way to get away from home for the weekend now and then. It was one of the appeals of the sport

Why don't you have your A yet? You have 32 jumps...what are you missing?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

Just a couple of thoughts.

Going low on a formation is a dangerous situation. Would another 50 jump wonder know to advise (or know at all) not going under a formation while recovering? Maybe so, maybe no.

Big guys usually use big jumpsuits. Would a 50 jumper be able to advise on things like making sure a jumpsuit doesn't cover your altimiter or handles? Again, it's a toss up.

A more experienced jumper (presumably a big guy, or rated coach) would know both of these, and advise accordingly. Often times in skydiving, advcie goes deeper than the core reccomendation, such as the examples above. Without the underlying concerns being addressed, the advice can be more harmful then helpful.

Your point about freshness or learning doesn't really apply here as rated coaches are put through a course which teaches them how to teach, and they will fall back on this while coaching. Addtionally, any jumper capable of giving good advice, is always learning, regardless of jump numbers.

[Ron 7]

Quote

What is the risk you see with Al telling Dave how he figured it out?

He could give the wrong advice. He may be able to tell what he THINKS he did...But that may not be what he actually DID.

I have heard several guys give bad advice...They think they are giving good advice...But many times they are wrong..Sometimes they give advice and that piece of advice casues more problems.

Let use this dive for an example...Lets say Al tells dave to "hug the beach ball" And that will allow you to float some...But he forgets (Or just does not know himself) that you have to stay out from under the formation...The only way to do that is to be able to SEE the formation..The best way to do that is to turn your head sideways. But Al does not know that and he tells Dave to just get big...Dave does on the next jump and yes he comes up....right under the formation funneling it.

Honestly I was told once to get under a formation to help bring it down to me (Honest I was told this once.)

So bad info is out there, and a guy with 100 jumps really can't tell good info from bad yet.

Quote

What is the risk you see with Al telling Dave how he figured it out? This is NOT the same as a 50 jump wonder telling an AFF student how to exit a plane, stay stable in freefall, deploy, fly, or land a parachute. Once you're at the point where you're stable in freefall, have some degree of control, and can make choices on what caliber of jumps you're ready for (i.e. 4-way RW), what is the harm in discussing freefall techniques?

How do you make the call then..What is OK to talk about, and what is not OK? And I have shown you where it could be bad...

Another. Hey, can I jump this canopy its a Nova 150....?

Quote

People who have just learned something often have a fresher perspective as to how hard it was to learn that thing

Yes, but they may not know enough to be able to trouble shoot a problem...And they may not know enough to give the BEST answer.

Quote

It's human nature to explore. To try to learn things first hand, empirically. Again, I understand this is not always the best approach in skydiving. Learning to operate a parachute is best done through careful instruction rather than personal experimentation

BEST DONE THROUGH CAREFUL INSTRUCTION...Who is the better teacher. A guy with 100 jumps or the guy with 10,000? Who has the most knowledge? Who has the most experience? Who has made more mistakes? Made more of everything?

Quote

Aerodynamics is not an analytical science.

Tell Kallend that.



It all boils down to this...Would you rather get advice on how to turn from a member of Airspeed, or a guy with 100 jumps? Given the choice I'd go with Airspeed. They have the best info...

The guy with 100 jumps may have SOME of it right, but not ALL of it...and besides like you said with tracking. I turn different than you do....But I bet I know more about how you turn than you do how I turn.

The way I know more about how you do things that you me...Is that I have done it several ways, and I have been coaching it for years.

You said that

Quote

Aerodynamics is not an analytical science.

(BTW I don't agree...Its about math.) But who has more experimantation...You at 180 jumps, or me with 3,000?

Who will most times give the best answer?

BTW if I were standing on a DZ and a student walked up to me and asked me something I would direct them to a teacher that works on THAT DZ....I have seen different DZ's teach different things..If I had tried to help chances are I would not teach it the way that DZ wants it.

How hard is it to understand that those with more experience are better to get info from?

And that if a person does not have a rating they have not PROVEN their ability to teach or even their basic knowledge.

When in doubt get with (in order) :

1. YOUR instructor.
2. An instructor at YOUR DZ.
3. An Instructor.
4. A coach.
5. S&TA
6. An experienced guy that knows you.
7. An experienced guy that does not know you.
8. A guy with more jumps than you.
9. The DZ packer.
10. The Dropzone dog.
11. Ask on DZ.com.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,402]

>I have heard several guys give bad advice..

I have heard instructors give terrible advice, including the 45 degree rule, not turning downwind because "your canopy could collapse when the wind hits it from the back" and "get ready to break your fall when you flare" (thus nearly guaranteeing a turn during the flare.)

At some point you stop being under the direct supervision of a JM and you start getting advice from other people. At that point the advisor has a responsibility to not give bad advice and the advisee has a responsibility to judge which advice he should take.

>How do you make the call then..What is OK to talk about, and what is not OK?

Common sense. Terry, our pilot, has a few hundred jumps under massive canopies. He gives advice incessantly to anyone who will listen. If it's about how to load a jump plane, it would be a good idea to listen. If it's how to land a small canopy, maybe it would be a good idea to take it with a grain of salt.

>Another. Hey, can I jump this canopy its a Nova 150....?

Some reasonable answers would be "I don't know" or "they are notoriously bad in turbulence" or "when I jumped them, I . . ." Refusing to answer might just lead to that jumper's death, just as bad advice might lead to the same thing.

>How hard is it to understand that those with more experience are
>better to get info from?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That former airspeed guy on your DZ may be exactly the wrong person to ask about exit separation; the guy who spots every load but only has 400 jumps may be a better person to ask. But how to launch a meeker? The 4-way guy would probably be better. Again, common sense has to prevail.

Skydiving is a community sport. Any 'rule' about who you should ask (and who should give advice) is nothing more than an attempt to put on paper what people have been doing for the past 20 years. It is how people learn in this sport, and no rule or guideline should keep people from asking when they have questions, just as no rule should stop people from trying to answer those questions to the best of their ability.

[The111 0]

Quote

When in doubt get with (in order) :

1. YOUR instructor.
2. An instructor at YOUR DZ.
3. An Instructor.
4. A coach.
5. S&TA
6. An experienced guy that knows you.
7. An experienced guy that does not know you.
8. A guy with more jumps than you.
9. The DZ packer.
10. The Dropzone dog.
11. Ask on DZ.com.

Heh, your point is well taken. I don't doubt that there are people who can give much better answers than me, but I guess my position still stands that I won't ALWAYS keep my mouth shut. Maybe that's dangerous on my part. There are some questions I won't answer, and there are some I will, but even when I do, I'll add the caveat, "ask an instructor as well." And I understand your point, why open my mouth at all? Why not just leave it at "ask an instructor ONLY"? All I have to say to that is, 1st amendment. I can choose what questions I want to answer, and the people I'm talking to can choose what advice to accept. I respect your position that I shouldn't be answering anything. For what it's worth, 95% of the questions I'm asked I won't answer. But some I will.

Quote

Quote

Aerodynamics is not an analytical science.

Tell Kallend that.

Comments, Kallend? And whether or not Kallend agrees with me (though I'm fairly certain he would on this), doesn't matter. My next comment may seem in very bad taste and a bit boastful, but if Kallend can have sigs which read "Kallend is right in just about everything", etc, then I can say this. In a thread a few months ago, I brought up jerk (the time derivative of position), explained how it was different than acceleration, and was scoffed at by Kallend who had never heard the term before (quote - "learn something new every day... J/K - Physics Prof" - a quote which to me implied that because he was a physics prof and had never heard of it, it wasn't real). When I explained jerk was different, he commented "No-one seems to have told Halliday and Resnick", i.e. it wasn't covered in his textbook. He eventually consulted a technical dictionary and found it was indeed real. A simple example that asking Kallend about everything is not the solution, despite the fact that he may be right about almost everything, and probably knows 100 things that I don't know, the example shows that in 4 short years of college and my own readings I was aware of something he hadn't been exposed to in ostensibly many more years of education and teaching.

Quote

Quote

Aerodynamics is not an analytical science.

(BTW I don't agree...Its about math.)

FWIW, I have a BS in Aerospace Engineering. Aerodynamics is not "about" math. Math is an imperfect tool used to attempt to describe aerodynamics. Aerodynamic equations were often derived in a very different way than other traditional scientific equations (which were theoretically derived). Aerodynamics "equations" have been derived by plotting curves through tabulated EXPERIMENTAL data, and approximating the curves with mathematical relationships.

Things such as orbital mechanics and electromagnetics can be described perfectly by math. Things such as aerodynamics and thermodynamics cannot. Why do you think wind tunnels exist?

Just as it bothers you when AFF students teach each other, it bothers me when someone who publicly asks for help with algebra says something like this about "math". Anyway, getting off topic, so I'm done...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Ron 7]

Quote

Just as it bothers you when AFF students teach each other, it bothers me when someone who publicly asks for help with algebra says something like this about "math". Anyway, getting off topic, so I'm done...

So even using your theory about aerodynamics....

I am MUCH more qualified than you to talk about it as it relates to skydiving than you...since, while I may suck at math...I do have 3,000 jumps and almost 100 hours of tunnel.

Feel free to talk to anyone you like....But understand that you may be wrong...and you could kill them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

At some point you stop being under the direct supervision of a JM and you start getting advice from other people. At that point the advisor has a responsibility to not give bad advice and the advisee has a responsibility to judge which advice he should take.

And the whole point of this thread was to advise 100 jump wonders to not be so eager to give advice.

Quote

Skydiving is a community sport. Any 'rule' about who you should ask (and who should give advice) is nothing more than an attempt to put on paper what people have been doing for the past 20 years. It is how people learn in this sport, and no rule or guideline should keep people from asking when they have questions, just as no rule should stop people from trying to answer those questions to the best of their ability

And I never asked for a "rule"...I just want 100 jump wonders to know that they don't have all the answers (Hell no one has ALL the answers...but I'd bet on the guy with 1,000 jumps to have more than the guy with 100), and for guys looking for advice to seek a better source than the 100 jump wonder.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crzjp20 0]

FIRST and formost let me say this... i am giving no advise to anyone look at my profile... i have 10 jumps.

Now with that said, when i finished my aff i had several people offer to jump wwith me and all that kind of stuff, but it seemed that i had alot more who just wanted to tell me what to do. Now i am new to this sport, and i dont know everything, but what i do know is this.... unless you area coach, instuctor, or rigger i seriously doubt i will listen to your advise. I want to be safe man, i dont want just anyone to be giving me advise. So in return there were several times i had to stop people politly and tell them that i was going to follow the instructions of my coachs and go from there,.


Anyways

Blue Skys

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

But do you think you could teach it as well as an instructor?

Definately not. And if anything, this thread has made me think more about that.

Quote

Why don't you have your A yet? You have 32 jumps...what are you missing?

Jumps 1-18 were SL progression back in 2000 when I lived up north. I did AFF on jumps 19-25 which I finished up early this month. Over the weekend I did 7 jumps, but I just played around solo with learning how to track and fun exits. It was just nice to have a weekend of play.

My next time out I'll start getting signed off on my A stuff, but even then my next short term goal is getting off of rental and onto my own canopy, so it's not likely an immediate focus. Right now I'm competing with AFF students for rigs on the weekends and my own container is probably a little better for some of the more aggressive body flying I want to experiment with.

[davelepka 4]

***At some point you stop being under the direct supervision of a JM and you start getting advice from other people. At that point the advisor has a responsibility to not give bad advice and the advisee has a responsibility to judge which advice he should take.
-----------------------------------------

This line is the core of the thread. By the very nature of the relationship, the senior jumper (the advisor) nees to censor his advcie, as the junior jumper (the advisee) is less capable of doing so.

The advisee has no way of knowing the experience of qualifications of the advisor (yes they could ask, but I haven't seen this happen). To a student or low time jumper, anyone with their own gear, and seemingly more experience than them (it must seem that way as they have advice to give) could be considered a valid source.

It's almost like teaching life lessons to an eight year old. There are some things a twelve year old could teach them, but I would put more trust in the accuracy and integrity of the advice from grown adult. To the child however both sources seem valid as the information in either case is coming from an older person.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Jumps 1-18 were SL progression back in 2000 when I lived up north. I did AFF on jumps 19-25 which I finished up early this month. Over the weekend I did 7 jumps, but I just played around solo with learning how to track and fun exits. It was just nice to have a weekend of play.

My next time out I'll start getting signed off on my A stuff, but even then my next short term goal is getting off of rental and onto my own canopy, so it's not likely an immediate focus. Right now I'm competing with AFF students for rigs on the weekends and my own container is probably a little better for some of the more aggressive body flying I want to experiment with

Well if you want help, and want to go to Zhills let me know.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Well if you want help, and want to go to Zhills let me know.

Thanks for the offer. But I just need to stop having fun long enough to get the work done on it.

[nathaniel 0]

Quote

It's almost like teaching life lessons to an eight year old. There are some things a twelve year old could teach them, but I would put more trust in the accuracy and integrity of the advice from grown adult. To the child however both sources seem valid as the information in either case is coming from an older person.

I think your analogy is telling. Student jumpers are not children, at least, not in the US except in very special circumstances...

I'm surprised by this thread most of all by the focus on individuals. A statement is not made true or false depending on who utters it. (unless it's a statement about the speaker...mmkay?) People who have never jumped before are capable of giving Good Advice -- reading aloud from the SIM, for example -- and skygods are capable of giving Bad Advice.

IMO the best way to counter bad advice is to provide good advice. Make your point by saying how you know it. It may wind up devolving into a pissing contest between jump numbers, but it doesn't have to.

Censorship is folly.

I get the impression that some skygods would place themselves as (edit oops, wrong word) gatekeepers of knowledge. This is truly dangerous.


nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Ron 7]

Quote

People who have never jumped before are capable of giving Good Advice -- reading aloud from the SIM

Thats not giving advice...Thats just reading aloud.

Giving advice is being asked a question and having to formulate a plan based on your knowledge.

The sim can't identify a problem for you. It can't tell you if you are back sliding, or tell you that your flairing to late.

Interesting enough a guy with 100 jumps can't either

Quote

I get the impression that some skygods would place themselves as (edit oops, wrong word) gatekeepers of knowledge

I would bet the guy with 1,000 jumps and an AFF ticket can identify a problem better than a guy with 100 jumps.

Quote

This is truly dangerous

What is truely dangerous is a guy that has 100 jumps telling a guy with 50 the right way to do something....Chances are they don't know, and are just being a parrot.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[D22369 0]

--->Excellent!!!! In all, our low timers at the DZ ask questions to instructors.

Some times you just dont get through to some people ....... unfortunately. A person with 4 jumps looks up to anyone with 20-55 or 100 jumps. To them that is a lot of jumps, and lots of times they will listen to them even if they have been instructed not to

At one DZ I used to work at we had a major problem child, a 35 jump wonder who wouldnt listen to our tactful advice about NOT instructing students, he had been warned repeatedly not to give advice to students. It was very irritating to find him doing this, but even more disheartening was to find the student listening to him.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I think your analogy is telling. Student jumpers are not children,
------------------------------------------

It an analogy, as in student jumpers are LIKE children in that they cannot always qualify the advice they are given as being sound or just BS. I didn't say that they were children.

If you had looked at the entire post, you would have seen the point to be that the responsibility falls on the one giving the advice to be careful and ensure that the advice is sound, as the one recieveing that advice cannot. This is where the situation is similar to my example.

In all fairness, I have probably defused bad advice more times than you have jumped out of a plane. It no secret that in skydiving experience and skill is generally equalted with status and respect. In persuit of this, many low timers will feel the need to advise others as a show of their knowledge. The disturbing reality is that these people only know enough to be dangerous. Thay often times are offering advice that may seem to be a solution on the surface, but will actually cause bigger problems with more dire consequnses (examples appear in one of my earlier posts).

I get the impression that some skygods would place themselves as (edit oops, wrong word) gatekeepers of knowledge. This is truly dangerous.
----------------------------------------------------

Replace the word 'skygod' with the term 'experienced qualifeid professional' and the only problem with the statement becomes if that person doesn't want to share that knowledge.

In a few years, after you have another 500 jumps, you will see that you have forgotten more about skydiving than you currently know. Just imagine what you will know when you cross 1000, 2000 or 3000 jumps.

[Nightingale 0]

I'll talk to students about my personal experiences, but won't ever give technique advice.

If someone asks me "how do you get up the courage to go out the door?" sure, I can answer that.

If someone asks me "how do you determine flare height?" I say "ask your instructor."