Ron 7 #51 November 18, 2004 I ordered my first rig from Ralph It was a good rig and a fair deal. I didn't know anything about gear and I got a good safe setup for about 1500 bucks that I put almost 370 jumps on."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #52 November 18, 2004 Thanks Liz!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lootcorp 0 #53 November 19, 2004 Disclaimer - With 4 jumps, I know nothing and do not claim to. Personally, I think the responsibility has to be on the person buying the gear. This is NOT to say it is ok for a dealer to try and sucker some newb, but salespeople do that in every industry, don't they? It's my ass up there under the canopy, and I don't trust ANY info I get from anyone unless I can verify it is true from a few different sources. That's what makes a site like dz so great - I mean, I know very very little about skydiving, but I already know not to downsize quickly and not to low-turn, etc..., thanks to the great minds on here who take the time to share their experience. I've taken the time to pore through this site as well as books, etc... in an effort to protect my life and the life of others who are around me when I jump. No dealer in the world could convince me to purchase a smaller size chute than I wanted. No one could convince me to use a chute in a container it was not designed for. I have taken responsibility for my own decisions and don't expect anyone to protect me - there's no excuse for jumping out of a plane if you are not willing to take the time to know wtf you're doing. I might be wrong, feel free to tell me so, but I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility and not letting yourself get taken advantage of by shady guys like the dealer in discussion. -loot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #54 November 19, 2004 QuoteI might be wrong, feel free to tell me so, but I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility and not letting yourself get taken advantage of by shady guys like the dealer in discussion. Your are not wrong at all. But the fact remains that most people aren't that way. Most people seem to trust a bit to much. When someone tells them I have been selling gear for over 20 years and I know what you need, a new jumper will tend to believe them. Quotesalespeople do that in every industry, don't they? If a car salesman lies to you about gas milage or screws ya on the price of floor mats that is one thing. But selling a new jumper gear that they just don't belong under or doens't match the rest of there gear is bad on the sport as a whole. I don't want to watch some new jumper die because dealer "X" had something he wanted to get rid of.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #55 November 19, 2004 QuoteNo dealer in the world could convince me to purchase a smaller size chute than I wanted. No one could convince me to use a chute in a container it was not designed for. I have taken responsibility for my own decisions and don't expect anyone to protect me - there's no excuse for jumping out of a plane if you are not willing to take the time to know wtf you're doing. Too bad not all the newbies or even more experienced jumpers think that way.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lootcorp 0 #56 November 19, 2004 I agree 100% - I did not mean my post to imply that I thought the dealer's behavior was acceptable. I agree with people trusting too much - you see this in many aspects of life. Scam artists make a living off of other people's trust. I wish it wasn't that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #57 November 20, 2004 QuoteQuote Quotesalespeople do that in every industry, don't they? If a car salesman lies to you about gas milage or screws ya on the price of floor mats that is one thing. But selling a new jumper gear that they just don't belong under or doens't match the rest of there gear is bad on the sport as a whole. I don't want to watch some new jumper die because dealer "X" had something he wanted to get rid of. I've seen Car and Motorbike dealers sell vehicles way beyond the capabilites of the (mostly) riders. I also think this is criminal. However. In skydiving as in motorbike riding, I firmly beleive that if you enter into somthing like this do it with "eyes wide open", if you are STUPID enough to go out there and spen thousands of dollars to buy gear (or bikes) that you havn't researched, and you havn't asked your CI DZSO or instructors about, and you get sucked in by the guy whos job it is to SELL you stuff then you get what you deserve. People NEED to stand up and take responsibiliy for their own stupid decisions. No one is taught to skydive in a vaccuum, get the fuck out there and ask the RELIVANT people (i.e. those who are not making money by selling you gear). If you go in blind then cop it sweetYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #58 November 20, 2004 >Personally, I think the responsibility has to be on the person buying the > gear. It's on both people. At a boogie, I once explained to a new jumper that skydivers breathe through their skin, not their mouths. "How do you get enough air?" "Well, your lungs are just another surface like your skin, right? It's the movement of the air through them that drives the CO2/O2 exchange. You know how they put burn victims in pure O2 environments to get O2 through their skin? Same thing here; falling at 120mph exposes you to way more oxygen than a hyperbaric chamber." "But I don't stop breathing!" he said. "Habit," I said. "Next time you jump, don't make an effort to breathe. Most people stop breathing after 40-50 jumps. It's just wasted effort." "How do people with full face helmets breathe?" "Well, those holes in the chin channel high pressure air up around their skin; after all, the only thing you really have to avoid are your eyes. Heck, if there were no airflow in those helmets, they'd fog up instantly, right? Especially if you were breathing in them!" "Uh . . . OK." "That's why most people wear cotton jumpsuits; they breathe. Ever wonder why the working time in competitive 4-way is only 35 seconds? It's because those nylon suits don't let them breathe as easily, and after 35 seconds or so they have to breathe again and that's distracting." "Really? I heard about that 35 second thing . . ." After about two minutes I had him convinced. I told him I was kidding before the night was through; I felt bad after I realized it was so easy. And this was someone with 20 jumps or so! The point of the above is that new jumpers HAVE to trust experienced people, so they're easy to con. At first it's their instructors they have to trust. Some TM's will tell nosy students "don't worry about that! You don't need to know that yet" and will take them up and jump with them. They are actually told there are things they don't understand yet, so they just have to trust people. And they do. Then they move on to coaching jumps, and they have to trust the coach to do things like organize dives for them and tell them when it's safe to exit. After a while they learn those things on their own, but at first they just have to trust people. Fortunately, most people are good about helping newbies. Amy and I have a rig that we loan out to new jumpers who can't afford their own gear right away. When they come over we give them a short course in how to maintain it, how to hook up a canopy etc. If I were evil I could make up stuff about their gear - "you have to stuff the handle inside the pouch for safety; just fish it out with your fingers at pull time" and they'd probably buy it. After all, I'm an AFF-I and Amy is a rigger; what do they know compared to us? Now, I wouldn't do that, because I feel like we owe it to help out newer jumpers They trust us because so much of skydiving is passed down from word of mouth, from experienced jumper to newbie. I think it's wrong to take advantage of that trust to sell gear. >It's my ass up there under the canopy, and I don't trust ANY info I get > from anyone unless I can verify it is true from a few different sources. I suspect most people trust what their FJ course instructor tells them without any backup. Did you really get any verification when your FJC I told you that pulling that reserve handle will cause a reserve to start deploying? >No dealer in the world could convince me to purchase a smaller size >chute than I wanted. No one could convince me to use a chute in a >container it was not designed for. Even if the guy said "Lots of people - world champions - have used exactly that gear combination with no problems. It's done all the time." ? There is simply a lot of stuff to know in this sport. Is a Hobbit reserve compatible with a Racer? How about a Phantom? What if you get a racer and want to use a Phantom but it doesn't come with a freebag; what do you do? What if a reserve bridle is missing assist pockets; is it safe to use? Is a partly ZP reserve compatible with an F111 main? Are type-8 risers safe to use with number 1 style harness rings? There are a lot of things to understand in this sport, and some people don't cross-check all their answers with someone else. Even more disturbingly, sometimes they do and get different answers - even though both people are right. That's where a good gear dealer comes in. If Brenda were to sell someone a used rig, and it needed a Capewell ripcord inspection, she'd tell them. If it was too small for them, or the reserve was almost timed out, or their first main was a bit too large for the container (but would work for a while) - they'd find out from her. If she watched them land (and the people at Sq1 often do watched landings) she might even tell him that he needed more jumps on canopy X before he jumped canopy Y - and that might keep him from a broken leg or worse. >I might be wrong, feel free to tell me so, but I'm a big proponent of > personal responsibility and not letting yourself get taken advantage of > by shady guys like the dealer in discussion. I agree here - it _is_ important to educate yourself as much as possible, and as you rightly pointed out, it's your ass up there. But people who take advantage of a newer jumper's trust are still slimy. I rank them up there with people who con old ladies out of their pension checks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #59 November 20, 2004 Ya know.. there is ALSO the probability. that the newer jumper( we all know the type) who has read EVERYTHING there is to read on the subject( but has very little practical experience) can talk the talk.. but cant really walk (OR LAND ) the walk. If this is in relation to the dealer I think it is... I have had good luck with. ( altho I do know what I want and dont bend from that easily). and I have jumped at that DZ. I know what kind of gear is used for students.. and what kind of instruction is given. Its all very old school and very conservative. I also know how conservative the experienced jumpers are forced to be there.( no hook turns.. ever), so I do find this a bit surprising. In this case. I would wonder what was told to the dealer...by the individual. NOW on the other hand.. just how much of an investigative researcher does any given dealer need to be. When I was starting out again... last year I was being fairly conservative in my gear purchases. But things like square reserves were a very new thing to me... jumpsuits had changed drastically....hell the new rig even had 3 rings on it. But ultimately with a bit of help from dealers.. including this one I got a pretty good.. and safe rig together.... The only thing that was less than desireable was the Main. My criteria was ZP and 9 cell. It was an older design.. but hey it dont fly too bad at all. At least the logo on the side of the canoy read SR-71( Private label for WPS for the Conquest ) instead of the other one I have seen on peoples canopies Bottom line.. its up to both parties..and personal responsibility is paramount. WE all know a LOT of younger jumpers who are just itching to get a really small and hot canopy so they can get that rush ot adrenaline..and fawning attention( ohhhhhh and ahhhhs from the peanut gallery) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #60 November 21, 2004 At the Equinox boogie there were a couple of major canopy maufacturers there, now whilst I didn't see everyone who went to htem to demo a canopy I did see quite a few and NOT once did I see anyone ask for experience or proof of same. My freind demo'd a Katana 107, her canopy is a Sabre 150, NOONE even asked her if she'd flown an eleiptical before let alone a 107 or similar. (fortunately she had and she's got 800 odd jumps, but they didnt know that).You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #61 November 22, 2004 QuoteI've seen Car and Motorbike dealers sell vehicles way beyond the capabilites of the (mostly) riders. I also think this is criminal. However. At least when they go to buy a motorcyle or a car they have already taken a test to demonstrate some sort of ability. Thus the dealers are safe and then the responsibility is in the hands of the buyer. Actually you can buy one without a license, but you can't drive it with out one.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #62 November 22, 2004 QuoteNOT once did I see anyone ask for experience or proof of same. CAll the manufaucture and let them know that happened. I know they would love to hear about it if there reps are handing out canopies that people aren't qualified for.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #63 November 23, 2004 [replyAt least when they go to buy a motorcyle or a car they have already taken a test to demonstrate some sort of ability. Thus the dealers are safe and then the responsibility is in the hands of the buyer. Actually you can buy one without a license, but you can't drive it with out one. I'm not certain the requirements in the US0fA but here in Oz you can get licenced to ride a ger than 250cc by riding a 350cc (27 horse power) after the test you can go and buy an R1 (200 horse power) and off you go (quite often litterally) I see the same thing in canopys. Whilst I agree that dealers should check the suitablilty of the pilot for a particular canopy. Ultimatly it's up to the comsumer to ensure thatthey spend their money wisely.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #58 November 20, 2004 >Personally, I think the responsibility has to be on the person buying the > gear. It's on both people. At a boogie, I once explained to a new jumper that skydivers breathe through their skin, not their mouths. "How do you get enough air?" "Well, your lungs are just another surface like your skin, right? It's the movement of the air through them that drives the CO2/O2 exchange. You know how they put burn victims in pure O2 environments to get O2 through their skin? Same thing here; falling at 120mph exposes you to way more oxygen than a hyperbaric chamber." "But I don't stop breathing!" he said. "Habit," I said. "Next time you jump, don't make an effort to breathe. Most people stop breathing after 40-50 jumps. It's just wasted effort." "How do people with full face helmets breathe?" "Well, those holes in the chin channel high pressure air up around their skin; after all, the only thing you really have to avoid are your eyes. Heck, if there were no airflow in those helmets, they'd fog up instantly, right? Especially if you were breathing in them!" "Uh . . . OK." "That's why most people wear cotton jumpsuits; they breathe. Ever wonder why the working time in competitive 4-way is only 35 seconds? It's because those nylon suits don't let them breathe as easily, and after 35 seconds or so they have to breathe again and that's distracting." "Really? I heard about that 35 second thing . . ." After about two minutes I had him convinced. I told him I was kidding before the night was through; I felt bad after I realized it was so easy. And this was someone with 20 jumps or so! The point of the above is that new jumpers HAVE to trust experienced people, so they're easy to con. At first it's their instructors they have to trust. Some TM's will tell nosy students "don't worry about that! You don't need to know that yet" and will take them up and jump with them. They are actually told there are things they don't understand yet, so they just have to trust people. And they do. Then they move on to coaching jumps, and they have to trust the coach to do things like organize dives for them and tell them when it's safe to exit. After a while they learn those things on their own, but at first they just have to trust people. Fortunately, most people are good about helping newbies. Amy and I have a rig that we loan out to new jumpers who can't afford their own gear right away. When they come over we give them a short course in how to maintain it, how to hook up a canopy etc. If I were evil I could make up stuff about their gear - "you have to stuff the handle inside the pouch for safety; just fish it out with your fingers at pull time" and they'd probably buy it. After all, I'm an AFF-I and Amy is a rigger; what do they know compared to us? Now, I wouldn't do that, because I feel like we owe it to help out newer jumpers They trust us because so much of skydiving is passed down from word of mouth, from experienced jumper to newbie. I think it's wrong to take advantage of that trust to sell gear. >It's my ass up there under the canopy, and I don't trust ANY info I get > from anyone unless I can verify it is true from a few different sources. I suspect most people trust what their FJ course instructor tells them without any backup. Did you really get any verification when your FJC I told you that pulling that reserve handle will cause a reserve to start deploying? >No dealer in the world could convince me to purchase a smaller size >chute than I wanted. No one could convince me to use a chute in a >container it was not designed for. Even if the guy said "Lots of people - world champions - have used exactly that gear combination with no problems. It's done all the time." ? There is simply a lot of stuff to know in this sport. Is a Hobbit reserve compatible with a Racer? How about a Phantom? What if you get a racer and want to use a Phantom but it doesn't come with a freebag; what do you do? What if a reserve bridle is missing assist pockets; is it safe to use? Is a partly ZP reserve compatible with an F111 main? Are type-8 risers safe to use with number 1 style harness rings? There are a lot of things to understand in this sport, and some people don't cross-check all their answers with someone else. Even more disturbingly, sometimes they do and get different answers - even though both people are right. That's where a good gear dealer comes in. If Brenda were to sell someone a used rig, and it needed a Capewell ripcord inspection, she'd tell them. If it was too small for them, or the reserve was almost timed out, or their first main was a bit too large for the container (but would work for a while) - they'd find out from her. If she watched them land (and the people at Sq1 often do watched landings) she might even tell him that he needed more jumps on canopy X before he jumped canopy Y - and that might keep him from a broken leg or worse. >I might be wrong, feel free to tell me so, but I'm a big proponent of > personal responsibility and not letting yourself get taken advantage of > by shady guys like the dealer in discussion. I agree here - it _is_ important to educate yourself as much as possible, and as you rightly pointed out, it's your ass up there. But people who take advantage of a newer jumper's trust are still slimy. I rank them up there with people who con old ladies out of their pension checks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #59 November 20, 2004 Ya know.. there is ALSO the probability. that the newer jumper( we all know the type) who has read EVERYTHING there is to read on the subject( but has very little practical experience) can talk the talk.. but cant really walk (OR LAND ) the walk. If this is in relation to the dealer I think it is... I have had good luck with. ( altho I do know what I want and dont bend from that easily). and I have jumped at that DZ. I know what kind of gear is used for students.. and what kind of instruction is given. Its all very old school and very conservative. I also know how conservative the experienced jumpers are forced to be there.( no hook turns.. ever), so I do find this a bit surprising. In this case. I would wonder what was told to the dealer...by the individual. NOW on the other hand.. just how much of an investigative researcher does any given dealer need to be. When I was starting out again... last year I was being fairly conservative in my gear purchases. But things like square reserves were a very new thing to me... jumpsuits had changed drastically....hell the new rig even had 3 rings on it. But ultimately with a bit of help from dealers.. including this one I got a pretty good.. and safe rig together.... The only thing that was less than desireable was the Main. My criteria was ZP and 9 cell. It was an older design.. but hey it dont fly too bad at all. At least the logo on the side of the canoy read SR-71( Private label for WPS for the Conquest ) instead of the other one I have seen on peoples canopies Bottom line.. its up to both parties..and personal responsibility is paramount. WE all know a LOT of younger jumpers who are just itching to get a really small and hot canopy so they can get that rush ot adrenaline..and fawning attention( ohhhhhh and ahhhhs from the peanut gallery) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #60 November 21, 2004 At the Equinox boogie there were a couple of major canopy maufacturers there, now whilst I didn't see everyone who went to htem to demo a canopy I did see quite a few and NOT once did I see anyone ask for experience or proof of same. My freind demo'd a Katana 107, her canopy is a Sabre 150, NOONE even asked her if she'd flown an eleiptical before let alone a 107 or similar. (fortunately she had and she's got 800 odd jumps, but they didnt know that).You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #61 November 22, 2004 QuoteI've seen Car and Motorbike dealers sell vehicles way beyond the capabilites of the (mostly) riders. I also think this is criminal. However. At least when they go to buy a motorcyle or a car they have already taken a test to demonstrate some sort of ability. Thus the dealers are safe and then the responsibility is in the hands of the buyer. Actually you can buy one without a license, but you can't drive it with out one.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #62 November 22, 2004 QuoteNOT once did I see anyone ask for experience or proof of same. CAll the manufaucture and let them know that happened. I know they would love to hear about it if there reps are handing out canopies that people aren't qualified for.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #63 November 23, 2004 [replyAt least when they go to buy a motorcyle or a car they have already taken a test to demonstrate some sort of ability. Thus the dealers are safe and then the responsibility is in the hands of the buyer. Actually you can buy one without a license, but you can't drive it with out one. I'm not certain the requirements in the US0fA but here in Oz you can get licenced to ride a ger than 250cc by riding a 350cc (27 horse power) after the test you can go and buy an R1 (200 horse power) and off you go (quite often litterally) I see the same thing in canopys. Whilst I agree that dealers should check the suitablilty of the pilot for a particular canopy. Ultimatly it's up to the comsumer to ensure thatthey spend their money wisely.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #64 November 23, 2004 I have to agree with the several posts that advocate taking responsibility for decisions yourself. NOT that I think a dealer should pull shit like that ... far from it. But, I would think that anyone with a lick of sense that is buying gear would be sure to research enough to ensure that they are getting what they need, and that it's safe for them. I got my rig right off of student status, but you'd better believe I drove all the JM's and everyone else working at the dz, as well as the folks that got me started in the sport (one jumping since the 70's) and other jumpers I had gotten to know who had more experience CRAZY with questions. THEN I started calling dealers, etc. ... and asked another round. As mentioned in other's posts ... some were very helpful when I told them I was a newbie, and took time to carefully go over my choices and reasons for them ... I SURE appreciated those folks. As for the dealer in question ... I've been around the sport for a bit over 4 years now ... and tho I've not dealt with him, I've heard a lot of the same types of stories I read here ... he'll never get a call from me. It is worth a few extra $$ to me to give my business to someone more reputable.As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
